Is it really that tough out there ? FIRED !

So your view of people is that they are 'stupid and cheap'? that's a bit harsh. And, dare I say, very convenient, as it puts the blame neatly on the citizens. You forget that demand is in part created by supply. people will buy what is there, since their range of choices , i.e what's available, is dictated by accountants in the electronics industry. It is they who ultimately decide what to put out into the marketplace. And not every average Joe is a technician or knowledgeable about consumer electronics, since it is not the sort of thing taught in schools, it's hardly entirely their own fault is it? more like a failure of the education system which does not equip people with the skills to judge and think about what they're consuming. Since there is little part from weak 'consumer legislation' to force companies to put serviceability before profits, what usually happens is, the formerly good brands end up cutting costs to compete with the cheaper ones and the whole quality level goes down. Oh, the joys of a free market...

less vacation, no unwanted

And if your boss had decided to make those changes (very common in non-unionized employer-employee relationships) then that would have been ok, right? Time to trot out the old chestnut, 'oh, I'll just find another job if i don't like it.' Well one of the things about unions is that you can stand for positions and later uses the democratic process to change what you don't like... instead of asking what your union could do for you, you could have asked what you could have done for your union ;-)

thanks for sharing all that unsolicited biographical drivel with us - NOT! None of which had anything at all to do with the argument. I see that modesty is not to be found in your list of qualifications...

Have you ever done

You clearly feel it was more important for the business to emulate exploitative practises which enabled those imports to be made more cheaply, instead of setting a standard - don't you think that those people had any right to defend their jobs? It's all about profit with you people.

yeah, i wonder under what conditions...? So you are suggesting that it was better for the US plant to close costing jobs, and move to exploit mexicans.

You truly are a

The only thing I have to respond to this abuse, which is neither called for nor deserved, is that coming from an adult on a science newsgroup, it's pathetic.

Service to your country? service to corporate elites more like. one day you might see that there are millions of workers out there whose rights are in dire need of defending.

-B

Reply to
b
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It's more complex than that. You may offer a higher quality yet more expensive product, refusing to make cheap junk, yet your competitor will put out cheap junk and people will buy that instead, forcing you to either put out equally cheap junk to compete, or drop out of the market. There's no one cause of it and I don't know how to fix it, but I avoid buying cheap junk whenever I can. It leads to me buying much less new stuff, but the new stuff that I do buy is usually nice.

Reply to
James Sweet

The Bill of Rights explicitly protects all rights NOT specified in it. (Read it.) The right to organize to advance one's POV, agenda, etc, is a right essential to any democracy.

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

But they rarely do. Take a look at the 19th century.

In other words, businesses should never pay their employees well, for any reason. (See your preceding remark.)

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

What caused the unions to be formed ? The companies.

greg

Reply to
GregS

Lucky rest of us live in the 21st century.

Supply and demand. Skilled work pays better than n> Having to? I thought businesses were free to do as they liked.

I would say it is the worker's problem too, but you are too much of a union butt boy to see the very words you write. Jeez.

Jim

Reply to
James Beck

Sure, but your rights end where they infringe on mine. I have the right to own and run my business as I see fit. How does your right to organize trump that? It doesn't.

Jim

Reply to
James Beck

Of course I knew that when I wrote it. But I wonder what would happen if a major union had the guts to drag a major company into bankruptcy. It might teach everyone a lesson.

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

(Read

That also works the other way around.

Businesses have a basic right to fire employees, for any number of reasons. But to fire union employees for no other reason than that they're on strike, violates the employees' right to protest their working conditions. And that _has_ to be considered a civil right. It's necessary to acknowledge such rights to restore a degree of balance in worker/employee relations.

As I and others have said, if businesses respected their employees, and they worked together toward common goals, there would be little or need for unions.

All you care about is whether businesses make profits, without regard to how those profits are made, or how they're used. Incorporated businesses are not human beings, and have zero human rights. It is the responsibility of society (and to a lesser degree, government), to force businesses to use their power responsibly.

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

What lesson would that be? That unions are nothing but mindless bullies that are more interested in throwing their power around than doing good?

Reply to
James Beck

Only in the mind of a union lackey. If I hired you to do a job and you agreed to the pay and benefits that's the deal. If you don't like the deal and the employer is unwilling to, for what ever reason, to sweeten the pot then the employee can go elsewhere. There should be no government backing of an employee that won't work. If you ask for a raise and you don't get it, well then it is up to you to decide whether it is worth keeping the job.

There is no need for them now. Like I said they only exist to wrest rightful control of a business from the owner(s). Nothing more.

What a bunch of crap. Keep paying those dues boy, keep paying those dues. Gotta' pay to keep that brain adequately washed.

Reply to
James Beck

You need to correct that thinking. If I am an organizer, my rights to

*attempt* to organize your workforce do *not* end, regardless of your wishes or how you run your company. If you fire your persuaded employees and attempt to hire new ones, I will picket your business and attempt to organize your new people. My union position would only be altered if you provided wages, benefits and working conditions that are at least equal to union shops. That's how things are.
Reply to
Don Bowey

You've been reading too many cheap novels.

Reply to
Don Bowey

OK, I was wrong. You haven't been reading too many cheap novels. Your just a close-minded greedy person.

Reply to
Don Bowey

Substitute "businesses" for "unions" and you have another possible lesson.

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

how

not

My mind is Rinso Blue clean!

I'm the one standing outside the box.

Reply to
William Sommerwerck

That's fine. I have a problem with the idea that you can't fire a union member just because they are on strike. You have the right to say or do what ever you want outside the doors of another's business. If employee 'A' comes to me and says "I want a raise and better benefits" and I say "Sorry, not enough spare money", or "Sorry, you just aren't doing a job that warrants that kind of compensation" and his response is "Well, then I'm not coming back to work until you change your mind". I would tell that employee to take all the time they need and spend it in the unemployment line. Isn't that my right as a business owner?

Jim

Reply to
James Beck

Possible, but not one I've seen. Now the opposite has been true far too many times. I'll bet all those Eastern Airlines people are still loving that union of theirs.

Reply to
James Beck

How am I greedy? I have practiced what I preached. When I didn't like the working conditions where I was I either got a better deal or moved on. Nothing greedy about it, just simple economics and I never needed a union to do it for me.

Jim

Reply to
James Beck

In todays ''World'',,,,, you practice what you preach,,, you get fired!

......................................................... I wanderrred againnnnnn,,,,,, to me home in the Moutnains,,,,,, (Wales) by Peace earrrrrly dawnnnnnn,,,,,,, by the practice,,,,,,, I will seeeeeeeee,,,,,,,, cuhulin

Reply to
cuhulin

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