Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

That is true. My Tesla allows me to program the charging to whatever level I want. I plug in twice a week and it stops charging at 80%. 80% gives me about 250 miles of useful range. Most manufacturers limit the amount of charge to a specific percentage of the pack's capacity to prevent owners from charging to 100% every single night.

To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs. *DevCheck Hardware and System Info* by flar2 Free + inapp, ad free, google free, gsf free, rated 4.8, 1M+ installs

*Inware* by evowizz Free, ad free, google free, gsf free, rated 4.4, 100K+ installs *Device Info HW* by Andrey Efremov Free, ad free, google free, gsf free, rated 4.7, 1M+ installs

My FOSS google play store client sets filters to only show such apps.

Only high ratings & installs Filter out all Google apps Spoof hardware & geolocation Spoof any device & OS version Do NOT delete APK postinstall Save search filter settings

Such that the files are saved from Android directly to a drive on Windows.

APKs saved into Windows drive Android system on Windows

Although for some reason, moving from Android 11 to 12 removed hundreds!

Android 11->12 screwed up! Hundreds of apps are gone.

Where a few hundred apps did NOT get deleted (but even Zoom disappeared)

Where did they go? Even Zoom disappeared! Updates in 3 locations

Luckily Android is tied directly to Windows so you can slide them all back.

Mirror Android on any PC Android mnt as drive letter Windows Drive: === Android Vysor IP address option

Even iOS is tied directly to Windows using the same tools Android does.

Vysor Android/iOS PC mirror

Where the Windows mouse & keyboard work over Wi-Fi to the Android phone.

Android SMS/MMS on Window

And you can just drag and drop an APK from Windows to Android over Wi-Fi.

Drag APK from Windows

So it's not hard to recover even with hundreds of apps gone AWOL.

But what you see here are the adfree hardware device info apps I suggest: *DevCheck Hardware and System Info* by flar2 *Inware* by evowizz *Device Info HW* by Andrey Efremov

Ni-cad cells are less efficient when slow-charged (see

). NiMH cells are best charged using the "step-differential" method (see ). It seems like many people want to believe that slow-charging batteries has some benefit in longevity and/or capacity, so you see statements like "it is a known fact...," even when the statements are really not true.

If the choice is only between a) "fast charge at high-current to 100% capacity" versus b) slow-charge at low current to 100% capacity" then yes, slow charging is better, but that's not how modern smart phones, or modern electric vehicles, with lithium-based batteries actually are charged.

your link states that the charge efficiency is better at faster rates, not battery health. you're moving the goalposts, as usual.

also, nicad isn't used in consumer products anymore, nor are the batteries even available (other than special purpose).

step-differential is proof that fast charging can be a problem, otherwise it wouldn't step down when it reaches a certain threshold.

although nimh is still used in some devices, it's nowhere near as common as lithium ion, the topic of the thread.

you're grasping at straws.

it seems like you are trolling again.

straw man.

I worry about heat too. Wireless charging my iPhone on the Qi pad in my car warms the phone...and more so if I leave it in its case.

And it warms even more if I also rest it on the sticky pad I sometimes keep on the car's charge pad to prevent the phone from sliding when turning corners.

Quod sequitur. Wireless charging is generally less efficient than using a physical connection, and the greater the distance between the coils, the less efficient the transfer of energy is and the more heat gets generated. A case will increase the distance and lessen the efficiency.

Since I use an old iPhone SE as a dash cam in my car, and I don't smoke, I have a Lightning to USB charge cable semi-permanently connected to the cigarette lighter port in the center console. So I just use that same cable in the extremely rare instances I need to charge my daily-driver iPhone in the car (can't actually remember the last time that was though

- probably on a road trip).

Inductive charging is not the same as wired charging.

For wired charging, there is no downside to proper fast charging that charges at a higher rate when the battery is very discharged then reducing the charge rate as the battery fills.

From

: "Unless there's some technical flaw with your battery or charger electronics, however, using a fast charger won't do your phone's battery any long-term damage.

Here's why. Fast-charging batteries work in two phases. The first phase applies a blast of voltage to the empty or nearly empty battery. This gives you that blazing charge of from 50% to 70% in the first 10, 15 or

30 minutes. That's because during the first phase of charging, batteries can absorb a charge quickly without major negative effects on their long-term health."

What's a GSF? All I could find was Golden State Foods.

My criteria for apps is no adds and the ability to do at least the one thing that I need very well. I don't care about the rest.

Ummm... How many apps do you have on your Android phone? See: Settings -> Apps and Notifications and look for something like "See all 202 apps". Mine has 202 apps, which I consider to be an overdose.

I'm still on Android 11 and am now at end of life with the last security update on Apr 22, 2022.

That's a 2 year useful life from date of Apr 2020 release. Part of the problem is that Motorola has too many models to maintain: "Evolution of Motorola Moto G 2013 - 2021"

I would think that the Android 12 update did you a favor. Time for a spring cleaning. Wipe everything and start over from scratch.

Ok, I'll give them a try but will probably add them to my "run once" app collection. Thanks for including the author's name. Apps with duplicated names are becoming all too common.

"Where does it say that on the URL you mentioned? All I find is: To achieve a reliable voltage signature, the charge rate must be 0.5C and higher. Slower charging produces a less defined voltage drop, especially if the cells are mismatched in which case each cell reaches full charge at a different time point." In other words, the dip in terminal voltage that defines EOC (end-of-charge) is less obvious for a slow charge than for a faster charge. If the charge controller misses this dip, it could easily overcharge the NiCd battery and ruin it. There's nothing in there about "efficiency".

I think we have different definitions of what is "best". From the above URL:

"Chargers utilizing the step-differential or other aggressive charge methods achieve a capacity gain of about 6 percent over a more basic charger. Although a higher capacity is desirable, filling the battery to the brim adds stress and shortens the overall battery life. Rather than achieving the expected 350 - 400 service cycles, the aggressive charger might exhaust the pack after 300 cycles."

I read that as a 6% theoretical gain, at the cost of 100 service cycles or about 30% of the useful life of the battery. As I vaguely recall, the justification for step-differential charging was that it was less likely to overcharge a battery when the battery was being "topped off" near the EOC. The 30% loss of useful life was considered justifiable compared to killing the battery from overcharging.

It is a known fact that most known facts are wrong.

Please note that until you brought up the term "battery", which means more than one "cell", the discussion was about cell phones, which currently favor one LiIon cell and do not use a "battery" of cells. With a single cell, the complexities of a BMS (battery management system), cell balancing, over/under voltage, over/under current, etc are not quite as complexicated as with a battery of cells.

True. Again, we started this discussion with single LiIon cells as found in smartphones. It would be nice if your could limit the discussion to this arrangement.

Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting of one or more cells". It wasn't always like that, but since literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded definition.

Language changes. Always has. Battery is a correct usage for cell phones these days according to several dictionaries. Just as doing things you really really enjoy makes you gay. Well at least it did in my youth...

AJL wrote: ===========

** That "battery" refers to one or more cells has been the norm for over 70 years. Technical docs and people use the word "cell" to refer to one example or the particular type. Not hard to accommodate both meanings.

..... Phil

Please not that I didn't write the following quote, you did. Please watch your attributions.

No, it's not. I guess I should be more specific. I would like to know why you find it necessary to test a LiIon cell in a charge range of zero to 20%, where literally every recommendation by the manufacturers declare that to be an RBI (really bad idea)? Looks that specs for any BMS (battery management system) found inside most LiIon battery packs. There is a feature that literally disconnects the cell if the terminal voltage goes below some value which usually works out to about 20% charge. Maybe this will help you understand the problem you're creating for yourself: "Lithium Ion Cell Operating Window"

Notice that the "operating area" is between 20% and 90% SOC.

Yes, but you are not the entire real world. Your currently undisclosed operating criteria is not the same as every user and certainly not the same as the cell phone manufacturer. The manufacturer wants big numbers because big number sell phones. Whatever it takes to produce big numbers balanced by cost and safety issues. Big numbers are rather useless if the phone catches fire in the owners pocket. So, the game of battery specmanship degenerates into squeezing as many watt-hours out of the battery as possible by any means deemed economical (and maybe reliable). Do it wrong, and you have a situation like Apple, where the phone had to be slowed down to produce a reasonable runtime as the battery aged. At that point, the user gets involved and tries to squeeze out as much power as possible. However, they can't because the manufacturer has already done that with a complexicated BMS algorithm. So the user looks to see what can be gained by breaking the safety rules. Good luck. If you are actually able to run the phone at extremely low SOC, then the manufacturer has screwed up and is selling an unsafe phone, battery, or both. What phone and battery are you using and I'll be sure to blacklist it.

Please note my domain name, LearnByDestroying.com. The intent is slightly different from yours. It's my contention that one does not understand how something works without first breaking it, and subsequently fixing it. Destructive testing, without subsequent understanding (and enlightenment) is useless.

It's a tiny part but admittedly the fun part. It's lots of fun to blow things up. It's less fun, but more educational to understand how the device you just destroyed functions. When you destroy something (like your phone battery), do you take or record measurements? Do you record a video for an instant replay? Have you worked out in advance what you expect to happen? Do you look for anomalies? Do you own a data logger? How would blowing up a cell phone battery demonstrate anything if you don't know at what voltage (or SOC) and temperature it blew up? Did you put a plastic bag over the phone to capture any gasses (and flying glass) produced? Do you have a new battery or phone available for comparisons? Without these, all you've "learned" is how to blow up a battery or phone.

Hint: I still act like I'm kid. I even take things apart BEFORE I try operating them.

Usually because they are suspicious of the established theories of operation and have reason to suspect that parts of the theories are wrong or badly understood.

<snip>

"Fast charging improves the charge efficiency. At 1C charge rate, the efficiency of a standard NiCd is 91 percent and the charge time is about an hour (66 minutes at 91 percent). On a slow charger, the efficiency drops to 71 percent, prolonging the charge time to about 14 hours at 0.1C."

The original definition of battery referred to a collection of artillery for military purposes.

"Historically the term "battery" referred to a cluster of cannon in action as a group, either in a temporary field position during a battle or at the siege of a fortress or a city."

Ok. Let's say you have exactly one cannon. Would you call it a "battery"? Or would you call it a "battery of cannon"? Methinks not. So why would you call a single cell, as found in a cell phone, a "battery"?

What do you call a collection of cells? A gallery of cells such as celery?

Drivel: One mouse, two mice. One house, two hice?

Just curious- do you leave the phone sitting on the dash when parking the car in the street or parking lot?

And the original definition of gay was happy. I repeat, language changes. Dictionaries usually give the current meaning, though they sometimes disagree as well.

I'd call it a cannon. That's current usage. Language is not always logical...

Because it's the current common usage.

A battery. My 9 volt battery contains a collection of cells. Likewise my car battery. Current usage...

That may be the usage someday, you never know... 8-O

One Usenet post is a post, several Usenet posts are a fence??

Oops. I missed that part. However, it's still wrong. 1C is a fast charge for a NiCD. 0.1C is a normal charge rate. 0.05C to 0.1C is a trickle charge:

"Normally cells are charged at a rate of around C/10."

C/10 is maintained to where the NiCd is charged to about 70% SOC: "It is found that during the first stage of charging, up to about 70% of full charge, the charging process is nearly 100% efficient. After this it falls."

So, C/10 is considered a normal charge.

"It is found that a fast charge for NiCd cells also improves charge efficiency. At a 1C charge rate, the overall charge efficiency of a standard NiCd is about 90%"

So, 1C is considered a fast charge.

That leaves a trickle charge: "This trickle charge can be achieved safely by applying a small current to the cell or cells at a level between about 0.05C and 0.1C."

So, 0.05C and 0.1C are considered a trickle.

Incidentally, my NiCd fast charge testing was mostly done at 10C with ocassional excursions up to 25C. Using 800ma-hr AA NiCd cells, 25C is

20Amps charge current.

sms wrote: ===========

" Ni-cad cells are less efficient when slow-charged (see

)."

** Shame that is NOT what YOU wrote earlier.

snip, snip snip snip ......

..... Phil

false.

When a battery is charged too quickly, however, intercalation becomes a trickier business. Instead of smoothly getting into the graphite, the lithium ions tend to aggregate on top of the anode's surface, resulting in a "plating" effect that can cause terminal damage -- no pun intended -- to a battery. ... "The faster we charge our battery, the more atomically disordered the anode will become, which will ultimately prevent the lithium ions from being able to move back and forth," Abraham said. "The key is to find ways to either prevent this loss of organization or to somehow modify the graphite particles so that the lithium ions can intercalate more efficiently." Fast-charging of electric batteries can ruin their capacity after just 25 charges, researchers have said, after they ran experiments on batteries used in some popular electric cars.

...

'without major negative effects' is very different than *no* negative effects.