That's correct. Protel is the de-facto standard here in Australia, and they support even the old (now freeware) Dos Autotrax. This is actually quite a useful tool for low-end commercial applications, and even outfits like CustomPCB in Malaysia take Protel formats as one of their "standard' types for production.
Doubtless a naive question, but are there not copywright and other issues involved in sending a pcb file to a vendor. Granted, one can reverse engineer gerbers to a point, but I have not come across this issue yet, and I think my customers might be a bit concerned about sending the entire design to a vendor. I know that right off the top of my head, I would be as well.
I have seen many products absconded by other companies, and cannot quite grasp how this method is becoming a preferred process given that possibility.
Always willing to learn, but I would give up my products and designs only if absolutely forced to do so, lacking a good explanation.
Mark
Yes, there is a LOT more information in the design files, often including exact part numbers and even more sometimes. Also, using the gerbers gives you another chance to see stuff that's wrong by using a gerber viewer and interpreting the gerber files. I would rather spend an extra half an hour generating the gerbers and checking them.
Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
-- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Most operators I have used have confidentiality statements on their websites. That aside, I suspect you'd be battling to find a use for my designs based on a DSPTH board layout with or without overlay. If you want to R/E it with labels like IC1 and Q1 then you're welcome to try.
:-) I have done many products for consumer and high end musical equipment like sound reinforcement, fx processors, etc. To send pcb files to a board house in China would guarantee that they would steal them. Since the enclosures are already outsourced to that country for fab, the whole product would soon appear on the black market with the resulting damage to the American company.
Now this is not to be construed as condemnation of the society in another country, but I have already seen some of my work reverse engineered, appearing at trade shows under a bogus company name, at what had to be a great effort, so I would be loathe to just hand over everything to a businesses that are known to rip off products. Confidentiality statements mean nothing across international borders.
I guess the question I would like to ask is, how many folks are seeing gerbers becoming obsolete? This is the first I have heard of it, and as was mentioned, it seems a stupid way to send data to a fab house, as it is necessary to view and review files such as the gerbers in order to isolate problems. Its good practice, and it seems to me to be a sloppy practice to just send the whole pcb file and let someone else deal with it. Since the board house has to create all 18 layers anyway, they must be doing something equivalent to making a gerber file for each layer. I am old fashioned and want to control that process as much as I can. I don't think I want the board house messing with my work.
Interesting issue tho, as like I said, I have not heard of this practice. Glad I am reading these groups, I guess I need to get out more :-)
Mark
That's too strong of a blanket statement. NDAs and copyright law are quite effective from one 'first world' country to another, AFAIUI. I'd have no worry about a supplier in Europe or the US vs. a customer in Canada or any combination of those. China is another story.
They still often mess with it using FabFactory or whatever, when they panelize they *may* do little stuff like take silk screen markings off of SMT pads if they look accidental, and 'silently', plus adding their own logo etc. but at least you limit what info they have. I know they still look at the files carefully, because I often get questions about guard rings, partial slits in power planes (to control where heavy currents flow to outside of sensitive circuitry), traces with no pads at the end and other unusual-looking stuff.
The last Protel board I did looked fine on the screen, but I found that the splits in one of the power planes (I had it split into three) were generating too-thin slivers at a couple of the edges of the board. Using a gerber viewer allowed it to be caught and fixed before the files went off to the other side of the world.
From what I can see, some suppliers may *accept* the design files that to be caught before the files went out to the supplier on the les as an option, but I've personally not seen any trend to place a premium on gerbers. Protel is not really a standard world-wide- any supplier that punished other customers would not be making a good business move, IMO. RS274X gerbers (with embedded apertures and other stuff) and Excellon drill files are the standard, AFAIK.
Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
-- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
The ability to R/E a product from Protel .pcb files depends a lot on how much or how little additional information resides there. In my case I still choose to use DOS Autotrax, depite it having some limitations. As I previously posted, to R/E from one of these would require a LOT more information, including some idea of the end product's role and functionality. I have had a set of boards made in mainland China and the only clue to the role would be cryptic to we english-first-language types, to say the least. And as the device was software-driven, they'd have to fully understand the role and functionality to the Nth degree to be able to replicate the end product.
If you use a later product with all sorts of additional design information embedded, then there is certainly a heightened risk of R/E. But my files are simply a pcb with overlay info which NEVER includes part numbers/values - only circuit references like R1 and U1. So even though I've been called paranoid I don't believe my designs are at risk.
I suspect with most designers the generation of a complete BOM is only a couple of clicks away. It's amazing sometimes the amount of information that's embedded (hidden or not) in the documents some people send out (such as Word files).
Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
-- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
I know what you mean - I often peruse Word .doc files with XTREME, and identify all sorts of useless info like the author's name, default printer etc etc.
I picked up an old 386 laptop YEARS ago a Govt auction, and they had deleted everything except the basic WFWG installation - left so that it could be test-run by would-be buyers - EXCEPT they had left the windows swap file. It contained all sorts of confidential correspondence, name/address lists etc etc. Scary stuff!!
But you have identified one of the reasons I design with the old tool I do, and why I leave out ALL the info not needed for board fab.
i know this is like 6 years late but i had to put in my two cents worth...
an american company
at todays rate, the first board will be about 205 euros and each board after will be about 22.62 euros
Very often prototypes get modified before putting into production, so no real point in actually paying for hefty tooling charges if you can use a pooling process.
Try this in the UK, total for 2 off 100mm x 200mm 4 layer boards is coming in at about £175, and that includes delivery *and* VAT. The company is actually Spirit Circuits, I've had many boards made by them and the PCBs have always been very good quality, and they deliver on time:
Mark.
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