Never buy Altera!!!!

Give them the existing NIC and change it later. Or maybe start with the web version. That doesn't need a license.

-- Mike Treseler

Web version can't compile for an EP2S60

Volume IDs and MACs can be changed on most computers. Volume IDs do not need to be unique. I had some fun with an Avnet representive when we tried to register 12 licenses to the same volume ID. They refused to do it so we registered only one license.

Kolja Sulimma

Ever heard of a USB Ethernet Adapter ?

They also have NIC ID's and are around =80 10.- in my local store. That's 10 minutes of engineering time.

Karl.

Mike,

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I would like to help now if I can. First, Quartus II Subscription Edition includes a free 30-day trial (no license needed - just download and install). This should get you up an running with compiling a 2S60. Second, our sales team should be able to cut you an additional 60-day evaluation license. I'm happy to do so now - just email me your NIC ID. I can also help you with license you purchased.

Happy to get you up and runnning today.

Jordon Inkeles Altera Software Marketing snipped-for-privacy@altera-nospam-.com

No, was "cs_posting" not me. My quartus licenses work fine.

-- Mike Treseler

Lesson learned today: Stupid licensing schemes cost customers.

When I buy software I leave it in the shrink wrap if it has a dongle or lmserver and download the cracked version from internet and use that instead.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl

Compiling perhaps, but it explicitly says no programming file support, and the problem is that were at the point in the project where we need to program real devices.

Fortunately our distributor seems to have managed to sort out the difference in timeframe between emailing a temporary license and sending a box with a CD and dongle, as a result of which I've been able to program the device and get signals through it.

Somebody PLEASE explain to me why a license key is needed for software that does one thing only: implement designs in the vendor's specific logic family.

I can't use Altera's software to do Xilinx chips, nor can I use it to play Doom 3, nor can I use it to make my morning coffee. So why why why why why do the FPGA vendors insist on license keys for their tools?

-a

Hi Andy, I guess economics? The FPGA company has to pay to develop their silicon and to develop their software. As the customer, we have to pay for both of these, one way or another. If they gave the software away, they'd have to charge more for the devices. This would be unfair to customers that use a lot of devices in their products over customers that use fewer parts. HTH., Syms.

No - the money they make off development tools is a drop in the ocean compared to that made from selling silicon.

I - for the life of me - cannot work out why they'd even _want_ to charge for development tools. They're in the business of moving silicon - and I would've thought the _best_ way to do that is get as many people as possible programming that silicon?!? And the best way to do that is give away free development tools.

Ditto for the obscene price they charge for USB Blasters...

I guess their argument is that the web edition is free - but that only goes so far, as the OP has discovered.

We need an OQPE program (One Quartus Per Engineer)! ;)

Regards,

--
Mark McDougall, Engineer
Virtual Logic Pty Ltd, 
21-25 King St, Rockdale, 2216
Ph: +612-9599-3255 Fax: +612-9599-3266

They have to pay for the software development anyway. I think the economics term is "sunk costs".

Support is a different matter. It might make sense to give away the software and charge for support. But then, they would get complaints about buggy software or lousy documentation.

Another argument is that if you are buying a lot of chips, the cost of software is not important to your total cost.

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.

Have you ever priced support? With the software license comes an expectation for quick, accurate support. If anybody and their brother got support free of charge, the cost to support the hobbyist in designs becomes severe. The free tools don't come with bottomless phone support as far as I'm aware. Serious users need serious support.

They could go to a pricing model where the tools are free but support costs. Not many businesses are happy to pay for this model since "the product should be doing everything I want in the first place so why should I pay?"

- John_H

I've been on the other end of support at time. My memory is that a smart user who provides good test cases is worth a lot.

Support for a (possibly large) group of users with an internal wizard who filters dumb questions and relays the interesting ones is a lot different from the case where the vendor has to process the dumb ones too. I don't know how to put that into a contract.

I've seen several comments about costs of things. One key idea is predicting the cost. Bean counters would rather pay a guaranteed

2X rather than a probable 1X with a chance of 3X.

--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.

Andy Peters wrote: ...

Because Altera buys part of the tool chain from third parties. These third parties want to see real money for each installation and require the dongle.

Xilinx own all parts of the ISE Webpack Toolcahin and so can have a relaxed licensing scheme.

Bye

--
Uwe Bonnes                bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik  Schlossgartenstrasse 9  64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

Hi Hal, Well, I think your resoning is maybe flawed. They have to pay for the engineering design on the silicon 'anyway'. Yet you're not asking for devices which don't take that NRE cost into account. Someone has to pay for the costs, sunk or otherwise. Cheers, Syms.

Hi Mark, I guess you have some data to back up your statement? I'm sure you wouldn't just spout off on usenet without doing some research. ;-) I bet you spent the couple of minutes I just did to find this post:-

where Austin mentions that Xilinx has 250k seats installed. Or this news release from 2003 with 175k seats:- Now, I guess that includes a lot of free seats from the web download thingy, but the press release is talking about seats 'sold'. I would contend that this is more than a 'drop in the ocean'.

Cheers, Syms.

p.s. John and Hal make some good points about support, which I agree with.

[ "Last quarter, Xilinx saw a sequential 33% increase in design seats sold raising our cumulative number of installed software seats to 175,000 users,"]

Be very careful when reading press releases! :)

Sold only applies to a 3% increase, at no stage do Xilinx reveal the actual sold number, but they certainly try to create the impression, they have 175,000 users. Oops, even there, careful reading shows 'installed' - and I am sure the many copies I have here, and counted many times in that 175,000, and not just once.

Microchip use a similar 'elasticity' with their development tools stats.

A better number (that does not multiple-count SW versions), can sometimes be found in the Annual reports, - this from Altera's 2004 one as an example ["Altera serves over 14,000 customers in four primary market segments: communications, industrial, consumer, and computer and storage.]

Many of those will be using free web-tools, and yes, a few will be using multiple seats of keyed/paid tools.

-jg

SO that when the license expires .. they can ding you for another years worth of a new license.