Pleas for help from clueless students?

Nobody ever wants to know what I think :-(

However, I have noticed quite a lot of posts of this type on this group, not just from students but from real people too. Is the embedded industry just taking off in China and India or is there already a thriving industry and the experienced engineers just don't use this forum?

Is there money to be made on the back of this?

I have noticed this growing trend in usenet groups. It is really worrisome to think that, in the future, some of these guys may design a system on which my life may depend.

Not on my personal email accounts, which I try to protect.

Like in usenet. I would reply to a request from somebody that shows he did a bona fide effort to solve the problem on his own. I would ignore the rest.

I've posted using my real e-mail address for at leat 10 years, so there's no doubt that anybody who wants to contact me can. :)

That's pretty much what I do. I still have a hard time believing some of the e-mails (like the one above) are real

I am also amazed to see such kind of mails from an IIT student. Generally students at IITs are not that clueless. May be this guy isn't reading much as he should. IITs are really good institutions.

I am from India too but I generally prefer doing my homework first. I am a distance learner basically. And I turn to newsgroups only when I get stuck and google fails to give anything useful.

This may be a ploy just to see that if you reply and If you do probably you are the best one to seek help in future.

Ignoring isn't an option. If you think that the question is really legitimate, whats the harm in responding? Showing the way and warning that you are not supposed to somebody else's homework, would do. Ain't it?

Regards

--Himanshu

Yup. Putting my real e-mail address in Usenet postings has its drawbacks. But, my spam filter is quite good, and there have been quite a few times when I've been very glad somebody was able to contact me.

I suppose if they graduate without knowing how to do anything, they think they'll get soem other dummy to do their work for them as well. Or maybe they'll just go into management. ;)

Because they're asking via e-mail for the euivalent of a year or two's worth of training?

Some of these students apparently have no idea how microprocessors work, no idea how to write even a trivial C program,and no idea how any sort of serial or network communications work. Yet they're trying to do a farily complex embedded systems project.

They appear to be in so far over their heads that they're going to need a tutor sitting beside them day-in, day-out for weeks. I just don't have that kind of time or patience.

When I was at University, there were _courses_ we took about stuff like that.

Try reading the forums at 8052.com !!!!! It's one clueless student after another. (And it drives one individual so crazy that you will find entertainment value in his responses.)

Gary Peek Industrologic, Inc.

As I said, its all about not reading as much as one is supposed to. Reading is an essential part of any learning. There are so many sites that have articles from newbie to intermediate level. Unfortunately (for may be fortunately) embedded system programming is not something one can teach. I think it all comes with experience.

Regards

--Himanshu

There are the "I can't figure out my homework and I have a really bad hangover, can someone tell me what a computer is?" types of questions that no one answers seriously.

But people do remember when they were in school, deadlines were approaching, it was nearly impossible to book lab time, the equipment didn't work the way the instructions said, etc. So usenet questions with a twinge of legitimacy will often invoke some answers. The answers often tend to be appropriate answers for the most part, leading the student towards the solution without spelling it out (though occasionally someone will just blurt out the answer and spoil the pedagogical process).

I have noticed that over the years a trend towards more poorly worded requests. Not just from people with bad English skills, but more like they just can't be bothered to formulate a good question. The posts are tending to be blunter and less apologetic over time as well.

-- Darin Johnson

I think in some places, it's just very easy to stumble into coursework where one has no aptitude or interest.

Once upon a time, it would be very unusual to find an ME student who had not taken apart engines in high school. Now that would not be so weird, but you get the idea.

In Bangalore it seems to be very easy to stumble into electronics and computer engineering with no aptitude, interest, or experience. Sad. Let's hope they find another field.

This may explain things at the margins, and not reflect upon what might be a large number of fits, rather than misfits.

So its true that IIT is just an internet caf=E9 with an attitude?

Programming is not woodoo. If it can be learnt it can be taught. The problem is that there's so little academical interest in embedded software.

--=20 Fredrik =D6stman

Many developing countries have invested heavily in creating a large pool of engineers in the electronics and IT sector.

If the teaching resources were stressed to the limit and students were instructed to seek help from usenet and similar sources, one would expect that the question would vary from very informed to totally clueless. I would assume that most regulars in this news group would enter into a deep discussion with those informed, as seen quite a few times.

In practice, it appears that most requests come from totally clueless persons. A sarcastic person might even assume that the professors/teachers have noticed that, say, that the lowest quarter of the class are not going to pass the tests and encourage them to try usenet/web forums or even direct email to get the project done.

If one get the homework project done this way, at least the human engineering skills are quite good. So if the person is successful, he might be a good salesman, but definitely not a good engineer :-).

Unfortunately, most observed requests from the developing countries appears to indicate that the person would neither be a good engineer or even a good salesman.

Paul

So they will all become managers.

--=20 Fredrik =D6stman

Me too, constantly, but add other countries such as Indonesia and Malaysia to that list. I don't believe they're phishing, because many of these emails talk about code I have written or projects I have designed.

The whole institution cannot be blamed because of a single student. IITs still maintain good quality.

Well, can you teach every tid-bit? The understanding that comes with experience, comes with experience. Hadn't it been true, fresh graduates would have takes the places of experienced people. Each embedded project brings with it peculiarities. New challenges. You can't teach all of them. An instinct of right and wrong comes with experience.

--Himanshu

I still hang out in the Yahoo! Rabbit Semi group, mostly to see what sort of problems people are having. Occasionally someone, apparently naive and possibly a student, asks something that I can answer. And then the fun starts.

Not only do I get email filled with trivial questions, but due to the nature of Yahoo groups, and my employer's fad for wanting employees available via various IM programs means that I get IM-ed from students during working hours. Sometimes a quick break to help a newbie is refreshing. More often, though, it's yet another thought-derailing interruption that strains my fragile civility.

How come these kids can IM me day or night, but can't seem to form a useful google search that would answer their problem?

Kelly

Because it's easier to ask you for the direct answer, than to search through dozens of web pages and - *GASP* - actually read and understand something!

Years ago I was sitting in an almost-deserted lab putting the finishing touches on my 'Real-Time Software and Interfacing' major project when I was approached by a girl who asked me if I would "show her how to compile her assignment".

Now this project was a semester's work all-up, although it involved some hardware and software design. The software component was a few trivial control loops written in pseudo-interrupt routines under minix. Most students had problems wrapping their head around the software (it was a hardware degree, not software) and many spent weeks getting something to run. I was surprised that this girl was compiling her code for the first time only a few *hours* before it was due...

Anyway, I showed her how to compile it. It compiled with no errors. She asked me how to run it. I ran it on my board and - lo and behold - it ran perfectly and did exactly what it was supposed to do.

"Thanks!" she remarked, took back her floppy disk, walked back to her chair and proceeded to pack up, now ready to hand in her assignment.

Now I wonder what she's doing for a job? No doubt she's a manager somewhere, earning twice what I earn and doing half the work, whilst knowing about 5% what I know about engineering. :(

Still, I wonder who the smart one here really is???

Regards,

I suspect the quality of teaching, and perhaps a cultural bias towards rote learning. If you've been brought up in the belief that education is about finding the right answer to a set problem, you could be in trouble when you are faced with having to innovate. Perhaps a status thing as well- an unwillingness to (in their own eyes) humble themselves by asking the questions of people who know them on a daily basis.

Paul Burke

You'll find them *everywhere*.

I fellow student of mine who I befriended late in the course had absolutely *zero* interest in engineering. He spent the winter weekends down at the snow fields and was usually bleary-eyed in class. He did

He was working as a 'network salesman' or something, basically selling and occasionally installing (IIRC) Cisco boxes. He loved the fact that most of his time was spent talking to customers, traveling around and having lunches. No doubt he's managing a group of salesmen doing exactly that these days.

Why he bothered putting himself through an engineering degree I'll never know?!?

Now for the flip side:

Another student I befriended early on was a technician in the Navy. He'd done some sort of certificate before gaining admission into uni. He was never going to win the university medal, but studied diligently and showed *some* interest in what he was learning. Then, just over half-way through the course, he announced that it was his last semester. Apparently he was only required to finish certain subjects in order to be promoted in his job (still as a technician). And without completing the degree, he could never be an engineer.

A few of us tried to convince him to continue, but he wouldn't hear it. He liked his job as a technician and was happy with what he'd achieved. What a waste!

Even sadder is the fact that he'd done 'the hard yards' - all the heavy maths and physics and low-level electronics that make up the first half of the course. To some extent, the remainder of the course was a little more "wishy washy" - aside from the fact you could choose your own strand a lot of the subjects were lighter on theory and certainly less cerebrally challenging.

Why he put himself through that and *didn't* finish, I'll never know?!?

Regards,