a hobby class on microcontrollers

I need to think about a class that will include both young and old, all of whom have very little experience but at least the hope of trying to enjoy such a class on microcontrollers without knowing anything much about what they may be getting themselves into. (And I mean for people who might be 15 years old or even 75 years old! No college credit. Just a community education class with the purpose of some exposure to the world of microcontrollers and how they can be fun to learn about.)

Imagine it as taking a "pottery class" might look like for those not knowing anything about various temperatures and glazes and how they interact or the kinds of clay or any of the methods of making pottery; nothing about "throwing" a pot and almost nothing about pinching one up. Students who have NO IDEA at all what they are walking into, but feel it "might be interesting" and willing to have a go at it.

A task here is to help them find their own motivations and enable them to succeed with at least one project idea. I may start out with a survey of the class and skills and interests and then provide a spectrum of options to pursue, let them choose their poison so to speak, then give them the tools they will need, some basic education and support, and then 'run the class' in a way that has me alternating between short lectures and going around the room and helping them move forward when facing a barrier. The project itself will need to come from their interests, though.

Some may do almost the same thing as others, but in their own unique way. Some may attempt something entirely different. And some may have taken the class before, maybe 3 or 4 times before in fact, and may be "advanced students" who will not need so much teaching time themselves but just a little support and might even be able to act as help for other students who are new, with advice and maybe a little hands-on help, too.

An idea I have is to purchase existing kits (which I can get for less than US$1, in ones, cheaper still in larger qtys.) These:

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Many of them include a small DC motor, bright red LED, 40kHz emitter and receiver for motion detection, and so on. Actually, quite a few interesting parts. (At less than $1, these even include the boxes and shipping!)

One thought I'm considering is to use these as a base concept that the less knowledgeable students can select from. Then to go through an idea stage where we talk about possible modifications using a microcontroller and I work to "limit" their imagination to something they can likely achieve using a microcontroller.

The "microcontroller" they choose needs to be something cheap, available in DIP form, has an inexpensive development environment that isn't hard to use, and will probably have to come in BASIC, c, c++, and assembly incarnations. Maybe Forth, too. (Yes, I'm thinking about it.) Or some other 'turtle graphics' environment. I don't mind having to solve a lot of issues before starting, just to make sure there is a spectrum of options here. But the financial "hill" cannot be high. A $30 processor (Parallax) is NOT in the cards. $10 for everything is reasonable. (This must include USB cable, board, a cpu or two, IDE and software tools, and various parts they will combine in some simple way.) $20 is pushing it and will probably put too high a barrier on the less advanced students. The more advanced students will probably be willing to spend more.

Examples might be to take the "Robotic Beeper," which includes a DC motor, fairly-decent-for-the-price gear box, wheels (and two o-rings for the drive wheels), battery case for 2 AA batteries, and some wire and other stuff, and consider adding a small micro with dc motor drive circuit (using a cheap, discrete PNP and NPN h-bridge -- the NPNs I get for 0.3 cents each and the PNPs are more like 1 cent each and the resistors are dirt cheap) and letting them think about some interesting thing to do with that. It might be possible to merge this with another kit (the "Electronic Motion Sensor") to do something interesting. Ideas like that, anyway.

Out of pocket cost is important. Might be local high schools and after-class time with students drawn from there. Might be as a community outreach class with a community college and a wider range. Might even be held at an old folks' home or residence center as a social activity (or physical therapy) and a chance to bring in others and expand their horizons just a little.

It can have a more artsy focus for some, a more practical for others. In pottery, you will see some students go for cups, plates, and bowls -- practical stuff -- while others go for a more Picasso or frilly look and zero practicality. Some will have no imagination at all and will need me to suggest some ideas to build on. But I think students should be able to go in a variety of directions that _they_ choose for themselves.

I'd also like to figure out the "sizzle" that will sell the class. There will be meat there, but I need to get them in the door in the first place. Might be sold to parents to provide after hours with students learning but to the parents it lets them not have to worry quite as much about their kids while they are themselves busy at work, etc. Might be sold directly to those in the class by helping provide them with something they can take home and keep and feel proud about. Might be sold to others wanting to go home and try and pass along some interest of theirs to family members. I don't know.

I don't have make-or-break expectations about its longer term success. And I don't want to worry about it. I would simply like to consider the idea, flesh it out a bit to see how it 'flies,' and maybe take a chance and see what happens. The worst is nothing at all. And even then, I've tried and learned something from the effort. Anything more than that is probably a good success and I will let the students and potential students help show me the way. It may never amount to much, but simply doing it helps to develop community and that alone is a "good."

If there are some constructive thoughts, I'd love to hear them. If you know of a terribly serious flaw (outside of mere ad hominem) that I've completely missed, that's constructive too.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan
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We are suppling these $10 boards to a local college. It might work for you as well.

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Atmega32u2 C/C++ (WinAVR) USB boot loader (Atmel Flip)

32K flash 512 eeprom Reset and hwb switches Bi-color LEDs (Red and Green)
Reply to
linnix

Thanks, Linnix, for pointing this up. I'll have to check to see how much ram is present. 32k flash is more than I hoped for, though, and the bicolor LEDs are nice to have. The existence of the port pin through-holes would qualify this for use by beginner students so that satisfies my 'dip' requirement, I think. It doesn't come with a usb cable, I gather. So I'd have to factor that additional cost into the other criteria -- total investment by the students probably should be closer to $10 and not more than $20 total, including other parts like DC motors and BJTs and so on.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

I should add another problem, though -- shipping and more on the issue of DIPs. I wanted DIP because I want the _actual_ micro piece used in the final project to cost very little, so that students could consider owning several for their projects or buying more on their own. TI's $4.30, with shipping included (which I don't know about in the case you mentioned), also includes two processor DIP chips. And the price point for more is 'very low.' So they get a complete JTAG programmer _and_ a socket that allows them to use low cost parts in anything they decide to do. Your suggestion is very nice, all in all, but the 'each' price is $10 (if they would like to have three or four different versions or three or four different projects. In the TI case, the extra cost for each additional project is less.

Since I don't know whether or not students will care to do more than one, it might not be a problem. I'll have to wait and see, I think.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

As a tangential issue, I'm doing some volunteer robot courses for my wife's school, and of course have to fund the equipment myself because NYC schools are even poorer than I am... would you mind sharing your supplier?

I managed to get together a couple of robots with a BOM cost just under $10 (programmed using mark-sense cards, which the students print or photocopy), based on surplus motors and such I found on eBay by the pound, and using foamcore as the basic mechanical building material. But I think I could do some fun stuff with those kits you linked.

Note: Do you have an issue with RoHS? CPSC guidelines prohibit lead in toys for children

Reply to
larwe

Hehe. Sure. Winco (grocery store.) I bought up everything I could lay hands on. I've also written to the company that was re-selling them in the US to see if I can lay hands on more of them. (You can see the name on a sticker in the upper left hand corner of each box in that picture.) I have NOT yet received a response. Ultimately, I intend on contacting the Taiwan company involved. But I have a few other steps to get out of the way before I initiate that conversation.

In the end, I may also be back looking for supplies. I have enough, for now, to do a few classes. Maybe to get me by for a year or so. So that will put some experience behind me and perhaps I will be off looking for something slightly (or greatly) different in the end. I'm going to just "do it" and see where it takes me and follow the interests I'm shown.

Yes. I went crazy seeing them sitting on the bottom shelf in an aisle right next to baby care products, of all things. Marked down to $1. I got the manager over and snarfed up everything they had.

No. And I don't plan on thinking about it, either. ;)

The hurdle I find myself mostly facing, right now, is how to make this fun for the widest variety of people. There is no way I can start out saying, "To make this motor work, use PWM and a varying duty cycle." Not for many of them, anyway! They can be asked to say "Type in 'MOVE FORWARD'" or something like that, though.

I don't want this to be canned -- in other words, forced to accept an object that does something I've completely pre-determined for them. I want this to be like clay, where it is a basic medium they can shape into anything they have a mind to try. Yet it must also be as simple as clay to manipulate, too. One person might shape up a deer, or try to. Another might make a cup out of it. I want each to use their own creativity and interest and play.

Eventually (or maybe right away for one or two students), some may wish to try their hand at PWM or using timers and interrupts and so on. But I need to smooth the ramp, so that most anyone can at least have a little fun and try their own ideas out and laugh a little.

So the hurdle is that assembly, c, and c++ will be "not on the table" for many of them and I need to make sure they have something very easy to use, like a BASIC of some kind. And that means I need to write it or cobble it up from something like tinybasic or get some other bright idea from someone who may yet suggest it. Once I feel comfortable with that, I think I will be ready to take a crack at an actual class. But I have some work ahead of me there, I think, and that is the real barrier facing me in getting this going sooner than later.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

that does look very impressive teaching/price ratio.

perhaps this ?

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( tho it is a bit primitive )

- and I would add some functional targets too:

** Able to Source Step-Simulate on a PC So students do not need a target, to develop ** Able to Source Step-debug on the target The better this is, the less item 1 matters. ** Able to operate on a Flash Drive So they can work on any PC

-jg

Reply to
-jg

Just thinking some more about this, and that line# basic might be too much low-level work to bring into usable form. esp Debug wise.

An alternative path, could be to spin a variant of something like this ?

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This is a Basic to C - so you'd massage that, to allow a PC-Choice- Basic to debug at original source code, and also massage the C output, to have the original Basic lines as prefix comments so then the file will correctly Step debug on any C-Flow system, but look like Basic to a novice. It also lest them see C, on a read-only basis. (initially) This is also quite Core-Agnostic, and PC testable too.

ASM could probably also be supported, on a relatively simple pass-thru to any C compiler supporting in-line asm.

-jg

Reply to
-jg

Am 28.06.2010 20:44, schrieb Jon Kirwan:

I don't think that's a valid line of reasoning. I seriously doubt that the part being DIP has a guaranteed positived correlation to its cheapness. Not these days, any more.

I imagine the overhead in bond wire length, plastic material and pins must be a major factor in the total price for microcontrollers by now

--- those with few enough pins to be eligible for putting in DIPs in the first place, anyway. Not to mention economy of scale. I.e. even the same chip in a different housing should generally be cheaper than the DIP version.

Let's face it, guys: cheaply socketable DIP is a dead parrot. The only reason it's still sitting upright on its perch is that its feet have been nailed to it.

Reply to
Hans-Bernhard Bröker

It got 512 bytes of sram. There are usb buffer rams as well, so it won't cut into the 512 bytes.

Yes, they asked for that. Two port pins for red, green or off.

We might be able to include the usb cable.

Reply to
linnix

I think you have conflicting requirements, something easy to use is going to require big knobs, cables, big connectors and hopefully solderless =3D=3D=3D big money. A small flat pcb board with nothing but holes in it (TI 4.30 etc) is too intimidating for your audience.

Reply to
steve

...

I agree. Another way to put it is the demand for DIPs is probably due to:

- Legacy (a diminishing market driver)

- Educational and hobbyist (not much money there)

- Old farts like me who like to work with DIPs in our labs (also diminishing)

Supply will answer demand but for a price. In low quantities, price is usually not the highest priority in a purchase decision so you'll pay extra for the convenience of a DIP.

JJS

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Reply to
John Speth

I'm not sure what "dead parrot" means, but for a hobby board (or any board that someone will be "experimenting" with) having the chips in sockets is an advantage come repair time.

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Reply to
Gary Peek

Despite your assurances contrary-wise, it is.

No.. no.. that's not what I meant. I completely agree with you that DIP is __more__ expensive. They are more expensive to make. I've no doubt of that. Plus, if making in quantity helps cut costs further, then DIP will be more expensive for that reason, too.

The issue isn't the difference between say $1.20 for DIP and $1.00 for SMT. The issue is being able to use cheap, easy to understand tools in wiring up. A DIP socket is very cheap. Even a ZIF socket for DIP is way cheaper than a ZIF socket for some other beast. And very inexpensive soldering irons and ham-fisted neophytes using them can be successful (enough times to not be completely frustrated, anyway) soldering to them. The 0.1" spacing is a minimum. I'd rather the parts used 1/4" spacing between pins. But that's not in the cards.

The main thing is being able to hold something in one's hand, not lose it when you sneeze, and basically imagine these are

75 year olds or 15 year olds doing this. That is, if I allow them to use a soldering iron at all. Which I probably won't. Chances are, some of this will be done with Global Specialties prototyping boards and they will need to insert DIP parts into it and use jumper wires to connect things up. I _may_ introduce some of them to wire-wrap.

Also, Linnix's board is all SMT and it costs (let's say) $10 each. If a student needs two of them, they pay $20. But in the case where a processor is available separately, then it might only be $1 or $2 or $3, instead, since a whole board doesn't have to come with it. And Linnix's board doesn't have a socket on it so that's a problem. The TI board comes with a socket.

So there are a number of considerations included when I say "cheaper than."

Just you aren't getting what I was talking about, that's all. I probably wrote more poorly than I should have.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

The reality will be in the details. And where all this winds up, I don't know right now.

These kits, were you able to actually open them and look inside, come with large and small switches, knobs, wheels, gears and gear boxes, dc motors, 40kHz emitters and receivers, LEDs, and a host of other useful items. I've already got enough stuff to keep the costs of a successful project low and I don't need ANY MORE parts, at all, to do that. So I know the actual cost here.

It may cost more, once I run out of this stuff. But with hundreds of boxes like this, that may take a bit of time and by then I will know more and can work on the exact supplies I will need.

On the last point, the intimidation factor might be there _before_ they get into the classroom. I can't control their minds before that point in time. So that is why I mentioned that I need to figure out how to "sizzle" the class. But once they are there, it is MY JOB to take away any feelings of intimidation. That's why I get paid the big bucks ($0) to do this. If I haven't done my job well, then your point is valid. But if I succeed as I hope I may, then I'm more worried about specific details I need to smooth over and resolve than about this.

But I am very glad for your contributing thoughts, just the same. I need to hear objections and consider them well.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Have you checked out some of the MSP430 dev kits? They've got this new widget

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that they're claiming is $4.30/ea. Then there's their $20 eZ430 kits. The $20 gets you an emulator with a detachable target board, then you can get more target boards at $10/3pc.

--
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology
Email address is currently out of order
Reply to
Rob Gaddi

If you are not a Monty Python fan, it might be hard to appreciate the humour in it, but basically a "dead parrot" is something that is dead, but some people claim it is actually still alive.

Unless you have nothing much on the board, or everything else is socketed, then there are few advantages in having the microcontroller socketed. It is helpful to have reasonably large pitch, so that you can solder the chip, but I don't understand the big desire for DIPs for a microcontroller.

Reply to
David Brown

Yes, if you look over my posts in this thread you will see that I've already mentioned the one for $4.30 and I may have also mentioned the other one as well. In any case, I've posted up some tutorials that use the device on the Yahoo MSP430 group, as well. So yes, I'm well aware of them (and the extra target 2012 boards, too, as I've bought many, many dozens of those, as well.)

Thanks, Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Hehe. It's incredible. And I just went out and bought up all the pieces from another store (a haul of 72 boxes.) So that brings up my supplies. It also provided some new kits I hadn't even seen before as well as flushing me out with the better kits (some are better than others to snarf up.)

Paul has talked to me about his BASIC before and has always been very generous with his time _and_ money. If I decide to press on with something BASIC-like and if I feel I get stuck or might need a little help, I would probably let him know and see if he might have a thought or two to add. I wouldn't expect anything, but I know he has a LOT of interests and he might have something useful at his fingertips to offer.

Hmm. I have to think about this. Part of what I'd like to do is allow the students to choose their own directions. Some might want to blink lights, others might have a very specific project in mind that I'd need to help them realize (or lower their sights a bit so they could realize it.) Making a PC simulation for an "unknown" would be tricky. I'd like to let them use their imagination and then see if I can pick up that idea and help them through it. So I will have to think hard about this possibility to see if I can manage something useful. My first blush on this is that I can't. But maybe.

Oh, yes. This is essential. BASIC statements without line numbers would need to execute right away, I suppose. Something like that.

The TI $4.30 system ties into the PC, as well. I don't know any of its details -- haven't got one yet -- but I'm hopeful. But yes, USB access to a PC is important.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Maybe it's a culture difference, but I just don't understand the concept of someone who is planning to spend significant time learning a new hobby, but is unwilling to spend more than the price of a CD or a couple of beers for the required equipment.

If you were starting a fishing club, would you expect people to use a stick, some twine, and a bent paperclip, just because it costs less than a real fishing rod?

I think you are starting out backwards. Start out thinking about what these students are going to do, and how they are going to use the chips. For microcontrollers, more than anything else that means thinking about how they are going to program them. So first find the most suitable programming environment for the task - /then/ you can start looking at development boards or chips that will work with the development tools.

Remember, they are only going to need one or two devices - but they are also going to need PC development tools, emulators, debuggers, etc., to go with these. It's the total package that's important.

I would forget about the idea of a DIP microcontroller, and rather aim for some sort of small ready-made board with a microcontroller and debugging interface (preferably USB) built-in.

It is far better with a $100 chip that the students can work with, than a $1 chip they can't use. And if the $100 chip is the cheapest workable option, and you think it's too expensive, then cancel the class. All you are going to do by forcing people to use the $1 device is frustrate them and teach them that microcontrollers are out of their league.

It is also important to find a device and tools that the students will enjoy using. If the device is too small or restricted, they'll get frustrated. If it is too advanced and complex, they'll get lost. If they like the course and the device, they'll want to continue at home - the development tools must be available freely or very low cost (without painfully small restrictions like 4K "kickstart" editions).

Only once you have established some solid ideas of what you want, and what is available, is it time to see if it can be done at an acceptable cost.

Reply to
David Brown

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