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On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:07:03 +0000, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Guy Macon instead replied:

I would consider being in a kook's kill file to be a blessing, not a curse. Anyone who takes the issue of top/bottom/middle posting to that extreme isn't worthy of reading what I have to write.

The whole point of this discussion is wasted on those so bent in one direction that they can't see that this is a place for the recipient to gain information not a bully pulpit for them to expound on their own, myopic views about posting. The content is much more important than how the message is delivered.

The truth of the matter? If their brains can't organize the post because of the way it's presented, that should be an alarm signal to them and not grounds for a flame war.

Sometimes that's the only way to post. For example, should you not want to slice and dice a very valuable post that you are re-posting from long ago (they do happen now and again), then the top post to introduce that fact is appropriate and far better than having to wade down to the end to find out you should have started from the top. See what I mean?

During the early days of USENET, it was considered appropriate to post on the top to save people having to wade through a post and rehash everything just to read one line of agreement. Still is, as far as I'm concerned. Whether you approve or not, it's up the person adding his or her comment to decide where to post. Moaning about it or putting someone into a kill file is childish and does absolutely nothing save to increase the SNR of a newsgroup.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad
Loading thread data ...

Much snippage....

Nope. Chuck is a great example of "you can be weird, but you have to be good if you're going to be weird". I find his rants about top posting somewhat over the top, and I disagree with some of his opinions, specifically the use of embedded x86 controllers.

OTOH, he is probably one of the top 10 contributers here in terms of knowledge and accuracy. It would be silly to plonk the good with the bad.

But then, it does not appear that you're trying to make a living building embedded equipment and you have the luxury of your principles....

Nore snippage...

Got a cite?

Reply to
Jim Stewart

I'm quite certain you have that thoroughly mixed up.

Those weren't the early days of USENET, nor was it "considered appropriate". Actually, that kind of post has been so strictly the hallmark of newbies let loose by one particular online service provider that today such postings are known as "AOL" among long-time USENETers.

Reply to
Hans-Bernhard Bröker

... snip ...

I think you have the 'early days' confused :-) However, in general I agree with you. And, as you may have noticed, I consider it important to advise contravenors of the Usenet standards as early as possible.

--
 [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) 
 [page]: 
            Try the download section.
Reply to
CBFalconer

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:03:56 -0800, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Jim Stewart instead replied:

I'm retired from direct engineering and now teach. I design for myself and friends. I write curriculum. However, that doesn't mean I can't learn more from folk in this newsgroup and I have yet to use my kill file for an author here on comp.arch.embedded. I see no reason to start now.

Sure. I wrote the section on posting in the earliest version of Zen and the Art of Usenet. More than 25 years ago. Top posting was the preferred method at the time. It may even come back again.

The important thing to remember is to cut the irrelevant parts from your posted reply. There are reasons everyone does what they do and there's no reason to be belligerent about your way being right. It wastes an awful lot of time.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:08:53 -0500, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and CBFalconer instead replied:

Man, you give a guy a badge and this is what happens.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

... snip ...

Following is my normal diatribe about top-posting. What's belligerent about it?

Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all irrelevant material. See the following links:

(taming google) (newusers)

--
 [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) 
 [page]: 
            Try the download section.
Reply to
CBFalconer

Hope it is easier to get this time.

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments

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CBFalc> >

Reply to
Didi

Seems pretty calm to me.

I also have taken care to avoid being belligerent. I usually post the following, which is based on the reply that I got so many years ago when I was just starting to use Usenet and did not know the social norms. In my case I really appreciated being educated.

Here is my standard (non-belligerent, I hope) post:

...

Posting hints

Here are some references for those who are interested in improving the quality of their posts to newsgroups:

--------------------------------------------------------

"When thou enter a city, abide by its customs." -The Talmud

Quoting Style in Newsgroup Postings

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How do I quote correctly in usenet?

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Common Mistakes in Usenet Postings and How to Avoid Them

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Bottom vs. top posting and quotation style on Usenet

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Why bottom-posting is better than top-posting

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+What do you mean "my reply is upside-down"?
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Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes with this automated fix!

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From (spit!) microsoft:

"When including text from a previous message in the thread, trim it down to include only text pertinent to your response. Your response should appear below the quoted information."

--------------------------------------------------------

Reply to
Guy Macon

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 04:22:08 -0500, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and CBFalconer instead replied:

You could simply mind your own business. How other people post is up to them. It's none of your business and your belligerence is the fact that you call upon yourself to demand compliance. If a person top posts and it annoys you, look away. Simple.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

You forgot the bit about changing the subject line to reflect the change in thread.

w..

Guy Mac> CBFalc> >

Reply to
Walter Banks

A am bit confused about your "I wrote the section on posting in the earliest version of Zen and the Art of Usenet" claim.

You got the name wrong. the correct name is Zen and the Art of the Internet. No "Zen and the Art of Usenet" appears to have ever existed outside of a couple of typos and your posts.

You aren't in the Acknowledgements of the Art of the Internet.

It was written in 1992 and your first archived post was in 1994 -- 14 years ago, not 25.

When you first made the claim about what is in this alleged "Zen and the Art of Usenet" in 2002 you didn't mention being an author of the document.

There is no support for the above claim in the earliest version of Zen and the Art of Internet. Read it here:

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(BTW, I could find no references to "Zen and the Art of prior to "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance being published 1974.)

Furthermore, if you examine posts from the time when Zen and the Art of the Internet was written, you will see that the above claim that "Top posting was the preferred method at the time" is factually wrong:

formatting link
(Hint: look for the threads with the most authors.)

BTW, if you go back to the earliest archived Usenet posts, you will see a World Without Quoting (quoting newsreaders came later):

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If I am wrong and there exists a "Zen and the Art of Usenet" with you as a contributor, I will be happy to apologize for my flawed research. Just point me at some evidence. Thanks!

--
Guy Macon
Reply to
Guy Macon

So it is *NOT* OK for him to object to your posts but it

*IS* OK for you to object to his, as you have done above?

Where do I sign up for the "I can do whatever I please and nobody is allowed to criticize me" club?

Reply to
Guy Macon

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:36:59 +0000, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Guy Macon instead replied:

Where did I state it was not OK? I simply comment on his comments and so forth. I'm objecting to YOUR attempt to deny me a comment.

It's your club. You tell me.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:37:22 +0000, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Guy Macon instead replied:

Fans of irony, take note.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 19:32:00 +0000, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Guy Macon instead replied:

No, I got the name right. You got the wrong document.

I had nothing to do with that one. Sorry.

A contributor only.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

I try to concentrate on one thing at a time. A neophyte will get confused by trying to straighten everything at once. And I only seem to find interminable threads with unrevised subject lines in alt.folklore.computers.

--
 [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) 
 [page]: 
            Try the download section.
Reply to
CBFalconer

How does that advise the posters with bad Usenet manners of their problem? How does it lead to correction of those faults?

--
 [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) 
 [page]: 
            Try the download section.
Reply to
CBFalconer

Showing total lack of humor, top-posting, stripping attributes, etc.

... snip ~198 lines ...

--
 [mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net) 
 [page]: 
            Try the download section.
Reply to
CBFalconer

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:57:45 -0500, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and CBFalconer instead replied:

Who says it's a fault? I suggest to you that your method is a fault. Not because it's bad or you shouldn't do it at all but because it dismisses other legitimate means of reply. Top posting is not illegal but you seem to believe it ought to be banished. I suggest to you that others can post and read posts as they please. It's much more simple that way. After all, until you pay for everyone's Internet access and their USENET fees, you really can't stop them.

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

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