Hidden Tesla Technological System

The expression "divisible by x" is conventionally understood to mean an integral number of times, since otherwise the expression would have no purpose as it would, as you point out, apply to any number.

Sylvia.

Isn't there some expression like "evenly divisible..." or some such, to disambiguate the phrase?

Cheers! Rich

glen herrmannsfeldt schrieb:

Hello,

are you sure with 72 RPM? 75 RPM are also possible.

Bye

Clifford Heath schrieb:

Hello,

there are heavy problems with the Ferranti effect when using frequencies of about 1 kHz and more on long transmisson lines.

Bye

If I recall, Edison's distribution was horrible. Ten or twenty miles? Compared to that, anything was an improvement. It doesn't seem very likely they were considering two thousand kilometer long grids back then. Now, we're stuck with the frequency, so they're using super high voltage DC for longer lines and reconverting to AC on the receiving end.

mike (the schrieber)

In sci.physics.electromag Uwe Hercksen wrote: (snip, I wrote)

Putting "grand coulee" RPM into google, the first one I find, including pictures of building the dam and generators, has one indicating 120RPM, for one built in 1943.

There are now three power plants, the third one built around 1968. It is the third that runs at 72RPM. Three 600MW and three 700MW turbine-generator units, 615385kVA at 97.5% power factor. Each rotor is 60ft (18m) in diameter.

-- glen

The statement "is divisible by" is null if there isn't an implicit understanding of an integer result.

In high voltage DC generators an electrostatic discharge happens at the instant of switch closer which if not insulated or grounded properly can cause death or serious injury. These discharges are several times the magnitude of the voltage the generator can supply. My question is what causes this to occur and where is this "excess" or increased power coming from? Could we continually generate such an instance and somehow tap this energy? Does this mean that under certain conditions in the systems used today we have access to even greater amounts of energy then we presently utilize?

(snip 60Hz vs. 50Hz)

I remember touring the Lake Shasta power plant when I was young, maybe about 6h grade, and being surprised to learn that the generators run at 20rev/s, so six pole. I probably didn't know about more than two poles at the time.

Then much more recently on the Grand Coulee tour, I was again surprised to learn that they run at 72RPM. They are much bigger, so I suppose they couldn't really go at 3600RPM or even 1200RPM, but I wouldn't have guessed 72.

I was then wondering if one could measure the pole non-uniformity by looking for subharmonics in the AC waveform, presumably with a lot of averaging.

-- glen

----------------------------- I think that what you saw at Shasta would be 200rpm and 36 pole (20rpm,

360 pole doesn't make sense) rpm=120*frequency/poles The Coulee units are, on the basis of your information, 100 pole. It appears that some are 120rpm 60 pole. The optimal speed for a hydro turbine is related to the head and the generator is designed for operation at or near the optimum speed. The lower the head, the lower the speed so more poles are needed for a given frequency (and the diameter is necessarily large . Steam turbines work best at high speeds so the turbines and 60Hz generators will have typical speeds of either 1800 (4 pole) or 3600(2 pole) rpm.

As for pole non-uniformity and subharmonics - it appears that you are looking for a problem that doesn't exist. Are you thinking about some poles being weaker than others? This won't lead to harmonics or subharmonics. The main cause of harmonics is due to the need to have the stator windings in slots rather than distributed perfectly smoothly on the stator surface. The distribution around the periphery is approximately sinusoidal because of this, leading to slot harmonics. The windings are designed to get rid of the 5th and 7th harmonics while the 3rd and multiples of the 3rd are not present under balanced 3 phase loading. Even harmonics are zero. The lowest harmonics that you will see with a scope are the 11th and 13th and these are small.

Don Kelly cross out to reply

The reason why aeronautics uses 400Hz, and the usual PC switching power supply, with a ferrite core transformer, run about 20kHz.

I was wondering some time ago about the optimal power line frequency for ferrite core transformers. (And I have no idea on the relative cost.)

-- glen

A couple of problems:

1)Ferrite is nice at higher frequencies but at lower frequencies, transformer steel still has an edge with regard to relative permeability and allowable flux density. 2) so why not go to higher frequencies for transmission-? There the problem is the capacitance and inductance of the transmission line. The advantages/disadvantages of ferrites vs ordinary transformers are negligable with respect to the problems at higher frequencies. As opposed to communication systems. In fact the trend is towards high voltage DC for long lines. 400Hz in an aircraft makes sense as the generators are driven by high speed turbines, and there are weight/size advantages (not as important for stationary ground based units) and distances are small compared to those of ground based systems.

Different strokes for different people.

Don Kelly cross out to reply

Tesla found that the frequencies between 40-100Hz were safe as opposed to the lower frequencies which could be dangerous and painful. However, I also found that he discovered that the earth was by itself resonant 6Hz(6.67 precisely). He also saw the earth as the inner conductor plate of a spherical capacitor, with the ionosphere as the outer conductor plate and the atmosphere as the dielectric, which formed a resonating cavity with a peak at 8Hz(7.83Hz). While these low frequencies would be dangerous a multiple of them would be a safe and harmonic operation level with the earth and its surrounding media. I also read that while experimenting with a mechanically vibrating platform at 6Hz "one would develop a feeling of pleasant dizziness, some mild nausea, and a profound pelvic relaxation that could lead to sudden massive diarrhea". Maybe some dangers for not using the lower frequencies included not sending the entire nation to the bathroom at once, twice, thrice...until someone re-tuned the grid.

Well, working as a gummint shill, why am I NOT surprised at your efforts to STILL sweep Tesla and his inventions under the rug? If you want Telsa to RIP then how about revealing all that Tesla based secret technology that you and yours work with all the time?

Those in power have been trying to bury Tesla almost from the beginning. His lab burned down just as he started to gain momentum. Then he came under the thumb of J.P. Morgan. J.P.Morgan pulled no punches: "Nobody milks my cow for free!" he said in regard to hiring Tesla to produce inventions. Read almost any physics or Engineering book nearly up to the present and his name has been chiseled off all the monuments! And Tesla is the guy who just about single-handedly invented the 20th century. Not just power distribution and 3 phase and induction motors and all the rest that modern industry, nay, civilization couldn't exist without, but truly advanced items like the AND and OR gate! Or the remote controlled robot (he called them teleautomatons). Even the genius of the analog speedometer in your car still in wide use today is a Tesla invention.

Yet, the probing and study of all he did is STILL discouraged by guys like John Wood. What are they afraid of? You can bet that the very fact of trying to minimize and denigrate his inventions shows that there are things there of POLITICAL importance that they do NOT want discovered. So the beat goes on. We are all supposed to be happy that there is a unit of magnetic flux bearing his name. Whoop de do!

Don't be mislead by all the bullshit (of which the speculations in this thread are a fine example). Go dig it out for yourself as best you can and be aware that there are others interested in seeing that you DO NOT dig it out. Be careful out there.

By the way 60 Hz was picked because it provided the best compromise between weight and efficiency given the use of readily available inexpensive soft iron of the day for transformers. 400 Hz was picked for aircraft (of WWII) because weight reduction was more important than efficiency and by then there were also better core materials available. Obviously modern Ferrites provided another possible jump in frequency without losses being too serious. Tesla himself calculated the optimum soft iron frequency arriving at 60 hz. Earth resonance experiments came later.

-------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not a government shill and I agree with John. Sure there are many other things that Tesla did- he was a genius. He deserves more credit than Edison. I'm not belittling his real accomplishments (though those you mention got nowhere at the time - probably because the technology and/or the need weren't there to make it feasible at the time, rather than an attempt to hide his accomplishments ) . What I have a problem with is the same one that his backers had in the later years- his mind had gone round the bend and was chasing rainbows in Colorado. When the backers realized this, the funds dried up. So I try to distinguish between his real accomplishments and what might have been or were simply pie in the sky. Tesla is given as much or (deservedly) more credit than Edison in many engineering texts- and elsewhere- at least in those that I am most familiar with.

Oh, yes, the inexpensive soft irons of the day don't favour 60Hz over

50Hz.- In fact, with the irons in use at the time, 50Hz had an advantage. Even in the US 50Hz was on the scene prior to 60Hz- but to say one is better than the other depends on how you define "better" Win some, lose some. 25Hz survived for a long time and it had its advantages for the application of Tesla's motors. 133Hz has an advantage with regard to lighting. 16.33Hz is still in use for railways because it has an advantage in a specialized application. What was recognized was that there had to be a standardization. All that happened is that Tesla, Westinghouse and others made a choice on a compromise basis for general use and this was in the 50-60Hz range- suboptimal for everything.

Don Kelly cross out to reply

(snip, I wrote)

It seems that the main Shasta units, according to the web site, run at 138.5RPM. That is close to, but not exactly, 3600/26.

In addition, there are service units, which I believe supply the power to run the plant. There are two 2MW generators, according to the web, at 600RPM. (They are much smaller.) So either I remembered it wrong or the tour guide was wrong, but only off by a factor of two.

Yes. I was thinking, if one pole was different: weaker, stronger, or off in some other direction, it would cause a noticable effect at the rotation frequency, such as 1.2Hz, or harmonics of 1.2Hz (for 72RPM rotation).

I realize, thought, that is more obvious in the case of a two pole rotor and 100 pole stator, or the other way around, which isn't likely. Even so, it would seem that small difference in the poles could be measured if averages over enough cycles.

-- glen

That's not always true. Good steel (like high grade, stripwound GOSS) will have permeabilities at or above ferrite levels (mu_r = 10-30k), but cheap stamped stock typically lands in the ~1k range. Ferrites do about the same.

On the other hand, flux density is through the roof. Ferrites top out at

0.4T. Steel runs triple that!

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Tesla discovered "the brown note" ?

Have you got a cite for that?

--
?? 100% natural

Personally I suspect he was speaking truth as he understood it. I also suspect he either had one or more misapprehensions about em- related physics, or just didn't parse it in the "standard" way.

A lot of his "crazy" ideas did indeed work, and still do.

I have also read rumors of this. Unfortunately...

...Bearden and his ilk are also the source of most of said rumors.

Tesla believed in a specific sort of scalar wave, a longitudinal em wave denied by Maxwell et. al. It'd be a monopolar, not dipole wave, but monopole waves can't exist if electric flux must end on opposite charges.

It's hard to see that as a matter of parsing, since if his waves exist then Maxwell needs amending; flux lines can "ground" themselves on the vacuum.

If Tesla had known about "red sprites" and "blue jets" associated with thunderstorm he probably would have tried to tap them.

eslarec.pdf

Yet they can be redrawn to conform to standard conventions. Such things as distributed capacitance are not mere mathematical conveniences.

I see them as evidence Tesla did indeed parse reality to a different standard. Whether Reality also believes in his longitudinal waves remains to be seen, since AFAIK nobody's been able to show anything attributable to Tesla that might be an antenna for them that didn't "really" operate in an opposing-pole fashion.

Mark L. Fergerson

There is a well-known resonance frequency of the human abdomen that is in this frequency range, usually noted as 7 Hz. Similar results have been obtained with (very) loud sub-sonic sound (from a steam whistle, as I recall).

Best regards,

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wave denied by Maxwell et. al. It'd be a monopolar, not dipole wave, but monopole waves can't exist if electric flux must end on opposite charges.

Sir Oliver Lodge discovered the longitudinal waves in the wires. Tesla send it in the vacuum (rare plasma). "In April 1887, Tesla began investigating what would later be called X-rays using his own single terminal vacuum tubes (similar to his patent #514,170). This device differed from other early X-ray tubes in that it had no target electrode. The modern term for the phenomenon produced by this device is bremsstrahlung (or braking radiation). We now know that this device operated by emitting electrons from the single electrode through a combination of field electron emission and thermionic emission. Once liberated, electrons are strongly repelled by the high electric field near the electrode during negative voltage peaks from the oscillating HV output of the Tesla Coil, generating X rays as they collide with the glass envelope."

Electrons jump off from the end of antenna and cause the longitudinal (monopolar) waves in the rare plasma.

There is a full analogy to the acoustic waves.

with thunderstorm he probably would have tried to tap them.

All clouds expel electrons in the all directions.

things as distributed capacitance are not mere mathematical conveniences.

standard. Whether Reality also believes in his longitudinal waves remains to be seen, since AFAIK nobody's been able to show anything attributable to Tesla that might be an antenna for them that didn't "really" operate in an opposing-pole fashion.

Electric waves from a monopole are longitudinal. The ones emitted from dipole are coupled. Like the acoustic from the two sources. S*

Mark L. Fergerson

You're entitled to your views/opinions; It doesn't mean I or anyone else has to agree with them. If you're ever in the metro Washington D.C. area I would be more than happy to give you a tour of the U.S. Navy's S&T corporate lab (the establishment of which was suggested by Edison himself) where I work. (If you're not a U.S. citizen the tour would be more limited.) You might even learn something. Have a nice day. Sincerely,

--
John Wood (Code 5520)        e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil 

Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337