X-ray machine

Maybe your next project is making one. I gather handling the high EHT is a significant cost. Perhaps the secondary could be in the tube somehow, eliminating all external EHT wiring - I doubt it really.

NT

ebay has dental x-ray units starting around $500, but I think they need wet film developing. A digital imager is probably the hard part.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

My dentist uses (re-usable) digital imaging plates, they were quite expensive appsrently, i think they connect to usb.. he kept the same xray source.

--
  When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

It depends on the image size. There are plenty of dental image sensors but they are rather small. I have an almost new Midmark Progeny machine with #1 sensor that is barely enough for 256-ball 1mm pitch BGA. It is a VETERINARY dental Xray that is exactly the same as regular one just having cats/dogs/horses shown on its control panel but that mere fact made it half-price of regular one. And it came with a used #1 sensor for that price.

Image is immediate -- just push a button, hear a short noise of running HV supply and see picture on your computer monitor.

Those sensors are insanely expensive on Ebay, usually cost almost as much as I paid for my entire complete machine with a sensor.

However there are other alternatives e.g. Image Intensifier with regular camera attached. Those are bigger and let one overcome the main issue with dental Xray, quite a big focal spot size (my Midmark has 0.5mm focal spot that is actually smaller than 0.7mm for cheapest Xray option, Heliodent) that require moving the tube as far from the object as possible to get good resolution that makes it too weak at the object.

The crown jewels are made by Hamamatsu (there are others but Hamamatsu stuff is probably the only one us mere mortals can buy; anything else is almost unheard of being sold used for a fraction of original price) with best MFX units having focal spots of 5 microns or so. Those are NOT pulsed tubes, they are CW and such a small focal spot size allows for very high magnification factors without losing resolution. Paired with decent size Image Intensifier such unit is simply fantastic and works like a microscope with high zoom factor (purely optical, not faked digital zoom)...

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I think the dental X-ray technology is based on capturing a latent image on a metastable phosphor and reading it back with a laser scanner.

I don't think they have any electronics in them.

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown

Ebay and Amazon have in-mouth USB interfaced dental "digital film" things for around $2500. That plus a source looks like $3K total.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

Here's a PCB imaged with that parts counter machine.

Interesting but not very useful.

"Digital film" is not good for our kind of job. You have to make an exposure, then put that "digital film" in a scanner to actually get the image.

Intraoral sensors are much better -- most of those are just USB devices that you hook up to your computer and have image immediately after exposure without a need for additional scanner and moving your exposed film to that scanner. With sensor you can immediately see your image is not what you wanted so you can re-adjust your object/sensor and take another picture right away. You can also take several snapshots of e.g. BGA chip at different angles to check if it is soldered properly by simply turning your board and pushing the Xray button without taking that "digital film" to the scanner after each shot.

However even that is a big hassle as it is rather low-res at its default setting and it is PULSED so you can only make still pictures. Sure it is way better than nothing but it pales in comparison with a microfocus CW source with digital sensor or image intensifier with a camera that gives you live video in real time. You can rotate your board as you wish to better see some details, zoom in/out and change tube voltage/current while seeing results immediately. Dental Xray has a very limited voltage adjustment range if any at all so the only parameter you can change is exposure time.

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I was looking at one of these

but ebay and Amazon seldom describe what a gadget actually does.

I wouldn't mind a little hassle to get an image of an IC or a small potted thing, but I would want resolution, to at least see wire bonds.

Wet film developing would be too much hassle.

OK, first of all it doesn't make sense to copy all that Ebay crap. Just make it

and add item number at the end so it would by just:

That easily fits in a single line. All that other garbage is totally useless.

That particular item is one of a legion of intraoral sensor I've been talking about. It is Chinese so you won't get any support if you lose e.g. calibration files. Those are all extremely overpriced and there are people who actually pay such prices. This is one of the reasons why our healthcare is probably overpriced by at least an order of magnitude.

Just to give some number for comparison -- I paid something like $1,300 total (including shipping) for a complete almost new fully working MidMark Progeny dental Xray unit (that included control box, wall mount, articulating arm, full set of original manuals and accessories and even original shipping box with all foam inserts etc) AND size 1 intraoral sensor with all accompanying software. Most of that software is actually useless for meas it is mostly integration into typical hospital environment but it allow you to take pictures among thousand other features. It also had a Windoze SDK and TWAIN driver that allows to use it from any TWAIN-compatible Windoze application.

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ake

y

No, it isn't useless. Everything past the question mark following the listi ng number is Ebay's tracking information to show who did the search. That's why I trim it when posting a link to Ebay.

Sure it is. But what use does it have for links posted to usenet? And what is the use for that lengthy part between itm/ and item number? Does that "SPOT-GOODS-Dental-Digital-X-ray-Intra-Oral-Sensor-Imaging-System-WIN7-XP-Vista" carry anything useful that is worth manual unrapping those extra-long lines and have most newsreaders complaining about lines being too long?

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I already said that I delete it, for security reasons. I usually cut the de scription part of the longer link and post it separately, so that people ca n see what the link is for.

Excuse me for wasting bytes. Some day we'll all run out and I'll feel terrible.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

snipped-for-privacy@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

feel

Nah... you are just stupid for being so stupid as to not notice how things are.

It was easy to notice years ago, so you been lackin' boy.

I post a youtube link I searched for, it always has the search criteria tagged onto the actual found file string.

You are simply too oblivious to the small stuff to notice it, much less care about it or "sweat it" as they say. Not good attributes to be short of as an engineer.

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I don't think standard dental x-ray will be able to see bonding wire. They are designed to see cavity without giving too much radiation. You might ha ve to increase intensity for higher resolution.

That's last century technology. The one i worked on (fixing the stepper mo tors) has Ethernet and PC drivers to view images.

Gendex Orthoralix 8500/9200

Interestingly enough, dental X-ray machines are not that wimpy. 60 kVp at (IIRC) 8 mA is what I usually see on the panel at my dentist's office. Even at 1% efficiency they are shooting several watts at me.

For PCB inspection, the power of the X-ray source is a *long* way down on the list of important considerations. Given the right setup, 35 kVp at

300 uA is quite usable for electronic inspection on 6- and 8-layer PCBs, down to and including the bond-wire level. The sensor quality and exposure time, along with the tube's focus spot size, are what make the difference.

This thread is what got me into this stuff:

It really sucks that it's so hard to get your hands on a usable microfocus X-ray system. These things are about as hazardous as the color TVs that most of us grew up sitting in front of... and that's assuming you've jimmied the door interlock. Just about everybody here would sell a kidney or two for an MX-20 if they knew what they were missing.

As it stands, getting a good deal on a good machine is pure luck. And then you get to build a digitizer and write a bunch of software, unless you were

*really* lucky and got one that was (probably illegally) sold with its original PC full of patient records. Grumble...

Dental sensors are better than nothing, and at least some of the Gendex units have been reverse-engineered for use with free software at

. Not sure what kind of results can be expected without a microfocus tube, though. It's possible that a Gendex sensor and an older film-based Faxitron would be a good combination.

-- john, KE5FX

FWIW, an quick way to verify a system in an operatory is to have the sensor take an X-ray of itself. The GXS-700 sensor is a classic. Carestream offers a system that captures hundreds of thousands of images during X-ray bursts, software stitches the images together, colorizes them with flesh and bone tones, and then renders the result in

3D images that can be turned and viewed from any angle. It's great for patient education because it drives home the thinness of your oral bone structure.

Thank you, 73,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU 
There was a young lady named Bright Whose speed was far faster than light; 
She set out one day In a relative way And returned on the previous night.

My Midmark Progeny VetPro DC is settable from something like 50 to 70kV (don't remember exact numbers):

It came with their Size 1 Vision DX 600 Series Sensor:

and full set of of their software:

There was much more on included USB stick:

=== Cut === [ksi@maverick PROGENY_VP]$ ls -l total 8056 drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 amd64 drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 29 2018 CalFiles drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 ConfigFiles drwxr-xr-x 6 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 DotNetFX35

-rw-r--r-- 1 ksi ksi 150 Oct 9 2017 DriveInfo-V.txt

-rwxr-xr-x 1 ksi ksi 176105 Dec 8 2016 FireCRDriver.exe drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Nov 1 2017 Firmware drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 i386

-rwxr-xr-x 1 ksi ksi 16848 Dec 8 2016 InstallDriver.exe

-rwxr-xr-x 1 ksi ksi 215 Dec 8 2016 InstallVetProDR.bat drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 Plug-ins drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Nov 12 2015 ProductUpdate drwxr-xr-x 3 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 ProgenyImaging

-rwxr-xr-x 1 ksi ksi 7484928 Mar 20 2017 ProgenyInstaller.exe drwxr-xr-x 5 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 SDK

-rwxr-xr-x 1 ksi ksi 468992 Mar 20 2017 setup.exe

-rw-r--r-- 1 ksi ksi 230 Oct 9 2017 Setup.xml drwxr-xr-x 7 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 sqlserver2014expr_x86_enu_sp1

-rwxr-xr-x 1 ksi ksi 479 Dec 8 2016 UninstallVetProDR.bat drwxr-xr-x 16 ksi ksi 4096 Nov 7 2017 'User Manuals' drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 31 2016 Utilities

-rw-r--r-- 1 ksi ksi 4096 Mar 20 2017 Veterinary.dll

-rw-r--r-- 1 ksi ksi 11005 Dec 8 2016 vetprodr.cat

-rw-r--r-- 1 ksi ksi 2446 Dec 8 2016 VetProDR.inf drwxr-xr-x 2 ksi ksi 4096 Oct 24 2017 WindowsInstaller3_1 === Cut ===

As I've just finished full testing of recently acquired Hamamatsu L9181-02 Microfocus Source that turned up to be 100% success, fully working in all modes, went without errors through its 2-hour "warmup" (or "aging" as it's been called in older models) cycle I will be probably putting my Midmark set for sale really soon...

BTW, it took me something like 4 years to find a reasonably priced MFX source and indeed it is pure luck... I went through purchase/return of 2 faulty L8121-01 MFX sources (both had their tubes mechanically damaged inside so they lost vacuum and filled with oil) in the process and still have the fully working control box with cables for L8121-01 that will probably also go for sale...

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