West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water

Do you have a question? Post it now! No Registration Necessary

Translate This Thread From English to

Threaded View
Very high VOC toxicity levels are being measured. The exact sources(s) unkn
own, and remediation is very expensive if it's even possible. California, i
n particular, but the rest of U.S. to a lesser degree, is being challenged  
by one hellacious intractable mess after another.
https://www.consumerreports.org/water-contamination/wildfires-and-contamina
ted-drinking-water/

Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:05:22 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs

Quoted text here. Click to load it

That's hilarious, showering and watering plants with expensive bottled
water.

It's the fear-AGC effect. Some people just need things to be afraid
of. They should just watch horror movies.


Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 2:43:19 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
nknown, and remediation is very expensive if it's even possible. California
, in particular, but the rest of U.S. to a lesser degree, is being challeng
ed by one hellacious intractable mess after another.  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
inated-drinking-water/
Quoted text here. Click to load it

The state also has 35,000 abandoned oil wells emitting VOCs among other air
borne contamination and poised to do massive damage to underground aquifers
. California taxpayers will be saddled with billions in expense to plug and
 cap these wells properly. The oil company spin-offs that now own them can'
t begin to cover the costs.  Don't want to go near Kern County as if anyone
 is so inclined. As usual the military left their trademark signature of ho
rrendous environmental damage mismanaging that operation.

Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:55:13 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs

Quoted text here. Click to load it


My big fear in life is exploding some electrolytic caps from excessive
ripple current. My team of therapists are helping me with that.


Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 11:43:19 AM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it


Automatic gain control of fear?   Is that some kind of SanFrancisco phenomenon?

Seriously, though, the Flint water situation (and a few instances where my bread
machine didn't perform normally) make water quality a very suitable topic for
doubt nowadays.   Maybe in a decade, the EPA and municipal
water authorities will have credibility, but not so much just yet.

We don't need fear, we need potable water.   Larkin syndrome makes
a complicated model, drop the 'fear' fixation and keep it simple.  


Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:05:22 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs

Quoted text here. Click to load it

I live in the San Lorenzo Valley and have a little experience with the
CZU fire.  The water contamination problem was benzene contamination
from melted and overheated HDPE (high density polyethylene) plastic
water pipes.  Areas that were affected were quickly mapped by the
SLVWD (San Lorenzo Valley Water District) and customers along the
affected areas were told "do not drink, do not boil" while water
quality tests were run.  This took a few weeks because every water
district in all the fire zone had the same problem causing the labs to
be overloaded.  Here are the water quality reports:
<https://www.slvwd.com/water-quality/pages/czu-fire-water-quality-info
and latest map:
<https://www.slvwd.com/sites/g/files/vyhlif1176/f/uploads/czulc_fire_11_maps_0.pdf
The map was revised many times since the fire.  As of Nov 12, there
are no areas remaining under the "do not drink, do not boil" order. To
get there, a large number of water storage tanks and miles of pipe
were replaced.  I left out a substantial amount of detail.  If there
are any questions, feel free to ask.

I would like to thank you for providing me with my joke of the day.
Literally every word of your posting is either misleading, out of
date, wrong, or some combination of these.

Yes, there are areas still remaining that are failing water quality
tests because of construction and supply delays for replacement pipes.
The sources of VoC water contamination are well known.  They are a
bi-product of the fire burning or melting plastic HDPE pipe.  A
secondary source of other contaminants (usually non-volatile) is
ground water incursion into the water pipes when the pipes lose water
pressure.  When the water system has pressure, very little ground
water can leak back into the water system.  When the pipes lose
pressure from a melted pipe, ground water can contaminate the water in
the pipe.  This apparently happened in a few areas that have breaks in
the underground pipes.  

Yes, remediation can be expensive.  At best, it involves replacing the
existing above or underground HDPE pipes.  At worst, various
government agencies battle to the death to see which one can spend the
most money on regulatory obstructions.  Fortunately, we have little of
the latter.  The EPA is doing a very good job helping with the cleanup
effort and utilities replacement is moving along at a reasonable pace.
Public safety repairs, such as water quality, are very high on the
priority list.

Yes, California and the USA are being challenged by serial disasters.
If you look back in history, the US has had such problems in the past
on a smaller scale and survived.  The difference between history and
today is that the population is much higher today and therefore more
people are affect.  

In the future, please resist the temptation to post out of date
alarmist rubbish to an unrelated newsgroup.


--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 5:25:08 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot
e:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
inated-drinking-water/
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
aps_0.pdf>  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

You've been duped by your local drinking water bureaucrats. They cite a bun
ch of regulatory gibberish about maximum contaminant levels but fail to men
tion all those regulations are 20 years out of date. We know much more now  
about how dangerous contaminant levels can be. San Lorenzo's own contaminan
t measurements indicate arsenic at nearly 900x the level considered safe. H
ere's a bunch of others.
https://www.ewg.org/tapwater/system.php?pwsCA%4410014
Please refrain from posting childishly trusting government misinformation i
n the future.

Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 15:11:27 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs

Quoted text here. Click to load it


Perhaps the standards haven't been updated for 20 years (actually 24
years) because they work and don't need to be updated?  Have we had
any mass poisonings by drinking water that test below the current
standards?

It didn't take much effort to see how the EWG works.  They set
unrealistic goals for water purity (ERG recommended health
guidelines),
<https://www.ewg.org/tapwater/methodology.php
grades water district test reports, and proclaims that the water is
therefore unsafe.  In order to do that, I would need to accept the
numbers from the EWG.  
<https://www.ewg.org/research/introducing-ewg-standards-benchmarks-protect-public-health
which proposes to change to about 100 items:
<https://cdn3.ewg.org/sites/default/files/u352/EWG_TWDBStandards-Chart_PP01.pdf
According to the PDF, these proposed standards come from either EWG or
the California Public Health Goal:
<https://oehha.ca.gov/water/guide-public-health-goals-chemicals-drinking-water
Incidentally, in the first section:
    A PHG is the level of a chemical contaminant in drinking
    water that does not pose a significant risk to health.  
    PHGs are not regulatory standards.
Oddly, EWG is using PHG to establish their standards.

Incidentally, water quality standards do get reviewed as needed.
Arsenic was changed from 50ppm to 20ppm in 2001 (effective in 2006).
<https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/drinking-water-arsenic-rule-history
In 2000, congress directed the EPA to look into a 5ppm limit.
Apparently, it didn't pass.

I noticed that a large number of reasons for tightening the
contamination limits was cancer related.  I guess we're suppose to be
having an increase in cancer incidence.  It's quite the opposite with
overall cancer cases being either constant or decreasing since 1992 in
nine US areas:
<https://seer.cancer.gov/explorer/application.html?site=1&data_type=1&graph_type=1&compareBy=rate_type&chk_rate_type_1=1&chk_rate_type_2=2&sex=1&race=1&age_range=1&hdn_stage10%1&advopt_precision=1&advopt_display=2
(The peak at 1992 is caused by advances in cancer detection (mostly
PET scans) where produced an increase in new incidences due to early
detection.  Since the cancer rates are flat or decreasing, do we
really need tighter water quality standards?

Quoted text here. Click to load it

If you expect to be treated with respect, please refrain from name
calling (i.e. "childishly") and other forms of childish behavior.


--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Oops.  A made several mistakes here.  The paragraph should read:

Incidentally, water quality standards do get reviewed as needed.
Arsenic was changed from 50 ppb to 20 ppb in 2001 (effective in 2006).
<https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/drinking-water-arsenic-rule-history
In 2000, congress directed the EPA to look into a 5 ppb limit.
5ppb didn't pass, but 10 ppb became the new standard in 2006.

<https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/drinking-water-arsenic-rule-history
    On October 31, 2001, the EPA announced the 10 ppb  
    standard for arsenic would remain. The EPA Administrator,
    Christine Todd Whitman, stated that "the 10 ppb protects
    public health based on the best available science and  
    ensures that the cost of the standard is achievable."
Notice the word "cost".  You could have tap water with impurities at
distilled water levels, if you're willing to pay for it.

Arsenic in Some Bottled Water Brands at Unsafe Levels, Consumer
Reports Says (2019)
<https://www.consumerreports.org/water-quality/arsenic-in-some-bottled-water-brands-at-unsafe-levels/
Consumer Reports wants a 3 ppb limit.  EWG wants 0.004 ppb.  

--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 11:52:10 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wro
te:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
ter-brands-at-unsafe-levels/>  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

You can't go by that old stuff dating to 2000-2010. There were still a lot  
of unknowns and conducting detailed studies was very difficult to impossibl
e. One thing they did know was the dependence of the incidence of the most  
common cancers associated with arsenic, lung and bladder, on concentration  
in drinking water was exponential.
Check the IARC and NTP links here:
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/arsenic.html
EWG is usually right.
The point of the original post was California is probably screwing up the V
OC remediation too.

Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 06:16:10 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs

Quoted text here. Click to load it


Ummm, what old stuff?  If you're referring to the SEER 9 statistics,
they go up to 2016.  Trump was inaugurated in Jan 2017.  I'm not 100%
sure, but I suspect it's not a coincidence that the program stopped
collecting data about a year later.  The 2000-2010 dates refer to
something else I mentioned, I could use some assistance identifying
what your talking about.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Ok, we're now on arsenic.  I didn't know about the exponential
relationship.  However, it makes sense.  Those that are exposed to
tiny amounts of arsenic don't need medical attention.  Those who are
exposed to large amounts, do require attention.  More attention means
bigger numbers.  That's a problem with epidemiological research.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

That's a nice overview of the arsenic situation.  However, there's no
mention of exponential cancer incidence with increased exposure.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Except when they're wrong.  It's really difficult to determine when
something is safe.  It only takes one odd incident or study to declare
something unsafe.  Millions of people could be ingesting arsenic at
the FDA/EPA levels, and not develop cancers above the historical norm.
Yet a small number of individuals develop cancer, who happen to be
living in an area where there is arsenic in the water, and the
activist will march to have the safe levels lowered again.  It will
never end until we hit zero arsenic.  I suspect when we hit zero there
will still be cancer cases.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Interesting logic.  Since CalEPA, US EPA, and US FDA don't agree with
the EWG numbers, they must also be screwing up cleaning up the water
from VoC's.  Make one alleged mistake, and everything else they do
must also be a mistake.  

As you might suspect from my initial rant, I've been moderately
involved in local water issues for about 40 years.  At this time, I'm
working on some problems surrounding the installation of a 125,000
gallon water tank about 300ft from my house.
<https://www.slvwd.com/home/pages/redwood-park-tank-project-swim-tanks
The issues are not with the water or water delivery.  They're about
traffic, parking, equipment staging, and access during the 1 year long
construction.  Also, some really odd numbers on water pump noise after
completion.  

Incidentally, I drink water from the tap without any additional
filtering.  The only exceptions are during the first rains, where all
the animal dropping get washed into the river, when the pipes are
flushed, and when I measure that there's too much or too little
chlorine in the water.  When I had my office in Santa Cruz, I used to
bring gallon jugs of tap water to the office for tea, coffee, or soup.
Ben Lomond water is tastes great.

What you did was post a link to a worthless article on water
contamination in a fire zone, by an author who didn't do his homework,
full of misleading information, delivered in an alarmist manner, and
by coincidence was about where I happen to live.  You also implied
that because parts of California were having problems, the rest of the
nation is doomed to the same fate.  You didn't bother indicating why
you posted the article to an electronic design newsgroup and why it
was so important that we should read it.  

I still don't understand why  you repeatedly post off topic
environmental rubbish S.E.D.?  If you were so concerned about the
environment and perhaps politics, why don't you post it to newsgroups,
forums, or mailing lists where there are others that share your
concern and may have more to offer than electronic designers?  You
would get all the attention you could possibly want from your peers
and from those of similar political persuasion.  

Repeating again... In the future, please resist the temptation to post
out of date alarmist rubbish to an unrelated newsgroup.  Thanks.


--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water

Quoted text here. Click to load it

[...]

Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Fred is a well-known troll. Notice that few others respond to his posts.

Don't feed the trolls.  


--  
Science teaches us to trust. - sw

Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water

Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

You'll notice that I rarely post anything these days.  Most of my past
postings were only marginally related to electronic design.  However,
when Fred posted a misleading article about a topic which I am
personally involved and knowledgeable, I couldn't resist informing him
of his grievous misdeeds, unload a few accumulated frustrations, and
offer a few personal suggestions on how he might salvage what's left
of his image and reputation.  Once I get started, I find it difficult
to stop.  

Ok, you're right.  Time to end this waste of everyone's time.  Thanks
for the reminder.


--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Saturday, November 14, 2020 at 6:33:10 PM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  

That's the beauty of the Facebook block. You don't have any choice in the m
atter. You're blocked from seeing any content from the person who blocks yo
u. It will be a million years before some nerd creation newsgroup shit show
 could begin to do anything as intelligent.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Saturday, November 14, 2020 at 3:50:31 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr
ote:
Quoted text here. Click to load it
wrote:  
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
-water-brands-at-unsafe-levels/>  
Quoted text here. Click to load it
e VOC remediation too.
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Rule number one is don't waste your time reading the stuff published by the
 regulatory agencies, it's mostly politically tainted trash. The EPA is def
initely out of the question, and they're not a primary source of informatio
n anyway.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
  
Quoted text here. Click to load it

Wonderful. Speaking of which, the application of chlorine is a balancing ac
t, which is mostly failed nationwide. It produces chemical by-product that  
is also carcinogenic, and EWG has documented these as being 50x the recomme
nded safe level almost nationwide.

Seeing as how AD has entire product line dedicated to water quality samplin
g analysis, the post is in fact electronics related.

Quoted text here. Click to load it


Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 11:05:22 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs

Quoted text here. Click to load it

That Marian guy probably uses bottled water to wash his car and hose
down his sidewalk.





--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: West Coast Wildfires Bring an Unexpected Danger: Contaminated Drinking Water
On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:42:27 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Non-electronic drivel:

[Q]  How do you tell the difference between locals and visitors?
[A]  The visitors have clean cars and shoes.  The locals cars and
shoes are covered with ash.

That was the situation for much of late August through mid October.
Washing cars was somewhat futile because much of the ash was hung up
in the trees.  Despite some strong winds and two light rains, it
continues to fall.  The ash is hydrophobic (doesn't mix well with
water) and is therefore not easily washed off of cars with just water.
Pressure washing with a soapy spray works.  Hand washing with a sponge
or rag scratches the paint.  

During the fire, SLV water storage and distribution was severely
impacted by the loss of 4.5 million gallons of water from melted pipes
and tanks.  That was about half of the total storage capacity for the
district.  Rather than let the benzene contaminated water flow through
the distribution pipes, it was dumped onto the ground.  Actually,
there was little choice as 7.5 miles of HDPE distribution pipes were
melted by the fire.  That saved the distribution system from
contamination, but caused a short term water shortage.  For a time,
the district was providing free bottled water for residents who were
without safe water.  I suppose it's possible that some residents
washed their vehicles with bottled water, but I doubt it.

More non-electronic drivel:
For me, the ash problem persisted in an odd way.  I managed to give
myself an alkali burn on all of my finger tips.  I had stupidly left
several windows open when we evacuated during the CZU fire.  Upon my
return, there was some ash in the house, which I cleaned up with a
vacuum cleaner.  At this time, I was closing down my office in Santa
Cruz and dragging all the boxes home.  Many of the boxes were outside
on the deck and covered with ash.  For the last month, I've been
furiously moving these boxes into the house for storage before the
rains arrived.  I wasn't wearing gloves and picked up some of the ash
from the bottom of the boxes while carrying them.  Salty sweat
combined with wood ash, produces sodium hydroxide (NaOH) also known as
caustic soda or lye.  A few days of that and all my finger tips became
red and slightly swollen.  The lye and swelling also erased my
fingerprints to the point where my smartphone fingerprint reader would
not recognize them.  Once I figured out what happened, washing my
hands with a mild acid (vinegar) to clean out the pores fixed the
problem.  Lesson learned - wear gloves.



--  
Jeff Liebermann     snipped-for-privacy@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.

Site Timeline