On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 7:25:17 PM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@ieee.org wrote: ....
application, but it doesn't seem to have gone beyond prototypes, and they d on't seem to return significantly more of the stored charge.
The main advantage of flow batteries is that the energy producing parts (e. g. electrodes) are separate from the energy storage components so that that their capacity can be extended for just the cost of the active materials a nd tanks to hold them - potentially much cheaper and with much longer stora ge times. ...
On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wro te: ...
because the total car battery capacity would be an order of magnitude bigge r than the grid would actually need
th parties.
Why not?
The utility gains the use of the battery resources for energy arbitrage whi ch can reduce their costs significantly. In the case of the large battery r ecently deployed in Australia the cost of power was reported as varying fro m $14/MWh to $14,000/MWh even over relatively short periods. A few minutes of storage can help even out those costs.
The vehicle owner gains by making use of an expensive piece of hardware tha t sits doing nothing for 95% of the time. Earning $100 a month or whatever with essentially no effort would be a significant inducement to many owners . Agreed the fees must cover expected battery degradation but that seems to be becoming less of an issue - Tesla owners are reporting very small amoun ts of deterioration.
Obviously the rates and conditions must be agreed at a level that both part ies feel is fair. And presumably part of the contract would be that only a certain amount of the vehicle's battery capacity would be used so you would n't be left with a car a discharged battery if you needed it in a hurry.
In the era of EVs with 300miles range would it be a problem if it only had
200 miles of charge because the utility had used the last 100? If not only rent out 50 miles or don't do it all. kevin
, because the total car battery capacity would be an order of magnitude big ger than the grid would actually need
both parties.
hich can reduce their costs significantly. In the case of the large battery recently deployed in Australia the cost of power was reported as varying f rom $14/MWh to $14,000/MWh even over relatively short periods. A few minute s of storage can help even out those costs.
The question of profit is not about an absolute profit being greater than z ero. It is relative to the utility just buying their own damn batteries an d not bothering with all the problems of borrowing batteries from car owner s.
Your dollar figures are a result of the bizarre structure of the Australian power cost structure and a bidding process over very short terms. This re sults in absurdly high prices due the the inflexibility of supply and the v ariations in demand.
hat sits doing nothing for 95% of the time. Earning $100 a month or whateve r with essentially no effort would be a significant inducement to many owne rs. Agreed the fees must cover expected battery degradation but that seems to be becoming less of an issue - Tesla owners are reporting very small amo unts of deterioration.
The batteries are expensive indeed, and they are consumable. They wear muc h like mechanical tools. Would you let the utility borrow your power saw i f they paid you some nominal amount like $1.50 a day which is about what th ey *might* be able to pay you to use a third of your car battery capacity a t $0.05 per kW. Over the course of a year using your car every day, they w ould pay you about $600. In my opinion, that is far less than what I would even consider wearing out my car for.
rties feel is fair. And presumably part of the contract would be that only a certain amount of the vehicle's battery capacity would be used so you wou ldn't be left with a car a discharged battery if you needed it in a hurry.
This is an awkward problem to solve. I paid extra for a large battery in m y car, quite a *lot* extra, so I could have an extended range that would be on par with gasoline powered cars. If I let the utility company use that extra capacity then I get no benefit from the relatively huge investment I made compared to anything the utility can afford to pay me.
d 200 miles of charge because the utility had used the last 100? If not onl y rent out 50 miles or don't do it all.
Exactly! A lot of people will see how pointless it is to pay 10's of thous ands of dollars for extra capacity to let the utility use it and simply not participate. Then there is the problem of availability. There are any nu mber of examples of people acting in concert to deviate from the norm. If this happens with these car batteries if they aren't available when the uti lity is depending on them to provide power at times when there just isn't e nough generation capacity? Bill keeps saying "statistics" like it is a man tra. But statistics says at some point there will be a significant deviati on from the average and minimums won't be met. It's like the 100 year floo ds. It may be 100 years, or 10 years before they happen, but they *will* h appen. At some point too many owners will be distracted from participating for a variety of reasons and the grid will fail.
So why would the utility not just buy their own damn batteries and know the y will be available when they want them? It can't possibly be more expensi ve since you don't need to worry at all about meeting the requirements of p owering cars. It literally makes no sense to me that an EV owner would let someone else use the most expensive part of the car, the very part that at the heart of the biggest limitation and cost of EVs.
ch, because the total car battery capacity would be an order of magnitude b igger than the grid would actually need
o both parties.
which can reduce their costs significantly. In the case of the large batte ry recently deployed in Australia the cost of power was reported as varying from $14/MWh to $14,000/MWh even over relatively short periods. A few minu tes of storage can help even out those costs.
zero. It is relative to the utility just buying their own damn batteries and not bothering with all the problems of borrowing batteries from car own ers.
an power cost structure and a bidding process over very short terms. This results in absurdly high prices due the the inflexibility of supply and the variations in demand.
The Australian bidding process does what it is supposed to do, which is to make it profitable for the suppliers to invest in rapid turn-on dispatchabl e power, even though it isn't going to get turned on all that often.
The bidding period isn't all that short - currently the system auctions off half hour slots. A guy who was involved in the design gave an IEEE lecture on the subject, and mentioned that the original proposal went for 10 minut es slots, but the politicians who turned it into law didn't understand the logic behind the choice of narrow time slots, and jacked it up to half a ho ur.
There wasn't any battery storage on the grid at that time, and the politica ns were thinking in terms of turning on hydro-electric turbines and gas-tur bine generators, rather than the implications of having finely adjustable t ime periods.
that sits doing nothing for 95% of the time. Earning $100 a month or whate ver with essentially no effort would be a significant inducement to many ow ners. Agreed the fees must cover expected battery degradation but that seem s to be becoming less of an issue - Tesla owners are reporting very small a mounts of deterioration.
uch like mechanical tools.
It's actually a rather different mechanism. You need to know how much they "wear" before you can put a price on that part of the deal. Potentially los ing part of your potential driving range is a better defined loss, and easi er to put a price on.
parties feel is fair. And presumably part of the contract would be that onl y a certain amount of the vehicle's battery capacity would be used so you w ouldn't be left with a car a discharged battery if you needed it in a hurry .
my car, quite a *lot* extra, so I could have an extended range that would be on par with gasoline powered cars. If I let the utility company use tha t extra capacity then I get no benefit from the relatively huge investment I made compared to anything the utility can afford to pay me.
What makes you think that? The fact that you were prepared to pay extra for a larger battery does suggest that extended range is particularly importan t to you, but it doesn't mean that every car owner will have the same prior ities.
had 200 miles of charge because the utility had used the last 100? If not o nly rent out 50 miles or don't do it all.
usands of dollars for extra capacity to let the utility use it and simply n ot participate.
The utility will have to pay for the extra capacity - that's a given. The f ree market will sort out whether they pay enough to get enough car owners t o buy in.
les of people acting in concert to deviate from the norm. If this happens with these car batteries if they aren't available when the utility is depen ding on them to provide power at times when there just isn't enough generat ion capacity?
at some point there will be a significant deviation from the average and m inimums won't be met. It's like the 100 year floods. It may be 100 years, or 10 years before they happen, but they *will* happen. At some point too many owners will be distracted from participating for a variety of reasons and the grid will fail.
"Statistics" isn't any kind of mantra. Hundred year floods are improbable c ombinations of particular weather conditions, but they don't flood the whol e country.
Lots of people may occasionally pull their cars off back-up service, but it 's unlikely to be anything like a majority, and the mass of batteries in pa rked cars is more than an order of magnitude more than the utilities are ev er going to need.
hey will be available when they want them? It can't possibly be more expen sive since you don't need to worry at all about meeting the requirements of powering cars.
If we go over to electric cars - as we must - the utilities will have to po wer the cars. Since the cars are parked for 95% of the time, 95% of them ar e available to act as back-up stores. The 95% is an average figure.
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puts the peak-hour use up to 11% so only 89% of cars are parked then - comm uting only represents 28% of vehicle-miles travelled - 18% of total trips, while local errands are 29%.
use the most expensive part of the car, the very part that at the heart of the biggest limitation and cost of EVs.
That's because you haven't worked out how much it would actually cost, and can't imagine that the utilities could pay enough to keep you happy. Other motorists will probably be more flexible.
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 8:17:44 PM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote: ...
an power cost structure and a bidding process over very short terms. This results in absurdly high prices due the the inflexibility of supply and the variations in demand.
The US market is only slightly less bizarre with prices reaching $750/MWh b ut interestingly going through zero to the point that the operators pay to take power off their hands:
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63018/ ...
uch like mechanical tools. Would you let the utility borrow your power saw if they paid you some nominal amount like $1.50 a day which is about what they *might* be able to pay you to use a third of your car battery capacity at $0.05 per kW. Over the course of a year using your car every day, they would pay you about $600. In my opinion, that is far less than what I wou ld even consider wearing out my car for. ... You realize that a significant part of the deterioration is just related to time and is exacerbated by high states of charge. Tesla does not recommend normal charging to more that 90%.
This would not be compulsary but you probably will not be eligible for the lowest tariffs unless you contract for some demand management which may inc lude discharge as well as charge.
The utility can avoid large investments by sharing the costs with the cust omer - maybe it will come to fruition, maybe not.
lian power cost structure and a bidding process over very short terms. Thi s results in absurdly high prices due the the inflexibility of supply and t he variations in demand.
but interestingly going through zero to the point that the operators pay t o take power off their hands:
n-63018/
Really? You think $14,000/MWh is comparible to $750???
much like mechanical tools. Would you let the utility borrow your power s aw if they paid you some nominal amount like $1.50 a day which is about wha t they *might* be able to pay you to use a third of your car battery capaci ty at $0.05 per kW. Over the course of a year using your car every day, th ey would pay you about $600. In my opinion, that is far less than what I w ould even consider wearing out my car for.
to time and is exacerbated by high states of charge. Tesla does not recomme nd normal charging to more that 90%.
The charge issue is well known.
e lowest tariffs unless you contract for some demand management which may i nclude discharge as well as charge.
stomer - maybe it will come to fruition, maybe not.
Paying for someone else's investments is always more expensive in the long run. To the owner there is nothing to share. The battery is bought with f ull expectation of wearing it out. The issue is having to replace it prema turely when the utility wears it out some four or five times faster.
g run. To the owner there is nothing to share. The battery is bought with full expectation of wearing it out. The issue is having to replace it pre maturely when the utility wears it out some four or five times faster.
when the grid finally gets smart, the metered cost of electricity will var y based on time of day.
people might decide to use some of the energy stored in their car to power __their own house__ to reduce their usage during peak times, thus lowering their bill.
and of course they will charge during off peak times.
so I think this will be a self organizing feature.
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 1:22:56 PM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote: ..
Time of use tariffs already exist. PG&Es charges about 4 times for for power at 6pm than 3am if you elect to use the EV rate.
Tesla is promoting their Powerwall for a similar function and Toyota in Japan has been developing similar systems (mainly for use during blackouts but with longer term development towards load averaging).
ralian power cost structure and a bidding process over very short terms. T his results in absurdly high prices due the the inflexibility of supply and the variations in demand.
Wh but interestingly going through zero to the point that the operators pay to take power off their hands:
ion-63018/
ar much like mechanical tools. Would you let the utility borrow your power saw if they paid you some nominal amount like $1.50 a day which is about w hat they *might* be able to pay you to use a third of your car battery capa city at $0.05 per kW. Over the course of a year using your car every day, they would pay you about $600. In my opinion, that is far less than what I would even consider wearing out my car for.
d to time and is exacerbated by high states of charge. Tesla does not recom mend normal charging to more that 90%.
the lowest tariffs unless you contract for some demand management which may include discharge as well as charge.
customer - maybe it will come to fruition, maybe not.
g run. To the owner there is nothing to share. The battery is bought with full expectation of wearing it out. The issue is having to replace it pre maturely when the utility wears it out some four or five times faster.
The utility is highly unlikely to wear a car battery out "four to five time faster". You neglect the fact that when everybody has electric cars, the b attery capacity in the cars will be at least an order of magnitude more tha n the utility companies will need. In practice this means that the utility company is likely to be using less than 10% of the available car batteries at any one time, and the batteries are thus likely to wear out only 10% fas ter than they would if used once a day for normal driving.
ong run. To the owner there is nothing to share. The battery is bought wi th full expectation of wearing it out. The issue is having to replace it p rematurely when the utility wears it out some four or five times faster.
ary based on time of day.
r __their own house__ to reduce their usage during peak times, thus lowerin g their bill.
The idea of using car batteries to power the grid was about allowing solar power to be used in place of nuclear or carbon based power sources. That i s a far cry different from supplementing home consumption at peak times. M y home has had days where the total usage was 150% of the amount of charge available in the entire battery of my car! This is not even a very large h ouse.
No one has been able to explain why it is advantageous to create a complex and unreliable dependency on public cooperation on a daily basis. People a ren't machines and they change their habits with the season and weather. B ill wants to wave his hands and say "it will average out", but there would be significant fluctuations in the *average*. A perfect example is the way that traffic congestion is always better around DC in the summer when peop le go on vacation. That is exactly the time when evening usage peaks with the AC loads and many cars would be out of the area.
So why use up the capabilities of batteries in cars when it would be more c ost effective to use batteries dedicated to power modulation?
wer at 6pm than 3am if you elect to use the EV rate.
wer __their own house__ to reduce their usage during peak times, thus lower ing their bill.
apan has been developing similar systems (mainly for use during blackouts b ut with longer term development towards load averaging).
es-to-power-your-home/
Yes, and someone once pointed out that these batteries could be batteries t aken out of cars when their capacity has degraded to a point the car's rang e is too diminished. The grid won't care since you only need to use more c ells to have the same capacity and don't care about the weight. Or they co uld use battery technology that has a poorer energy to weight ratio, but a better energy to cost ratio.
I think someone with a vivid imagination and a poor grasp of the realities of such a battery sharing program came up with this and others just aren't looking at it with a critical eye.
power at 6pm than 3am if you elect to use the EV rate.
power __their own house__ to reduce their usage during peak times, thus low ering their bill.
Japan has been developing similar systems (mainly for use during blackouts but with longer term development towards load averaging).
cles-to-power-your-home/
taken out of cars when their capacity has degraded to a point the car's ra nge is too diminished. The grid won't care since you only need to use more cells to have the same capacity and don't care about the weight. Or they could use battery technology that has a poorer energy to weight ratio, but a better energy to cost ratio.
Pity that the grid isn't going to need any more than a tenth of the battery capacity that is going to end up in electric cars.
That means that grid only batteries are likely to cost twice as much per un it energy stored as their automotive equivalents, purely based on economy o f scale.
s of such a battery sharing program came up with this and others just aren' t looking at it with a critical eye.
I think it's more that your critical eye suffers from tunnel vision - it ca n't see what it doesn't want to see.
I picked up my model X the other day and it is pretty amazing! I'm not rea lly into cars so much. I see them as practical objects with nice paint on them. But I do appreciate performance in the sense of efficiency and comfo rt. My T100 wasn't too bad to drive and for a pickup got pretty good milea ge. But now I won't be buying so much gas.
The model X has a height adjustment which is useful in my driveway. Once I use it a few times it will remember to adjust the height before reaching t he driveway and on leaving. I gave it a quick charge in town before I came home just to try it out and was reading the on screen manual. The charge was done before I finished one topic.
They built a lot of features into this vehicle, but one they left out was t o time the charging for people who are on Time of Use charging (TOU). I ca n tell it to start at a given time, but I have to manually turn it off if i t hasn't reached it's charging threshold. Otherwise the charging is pretty effortless.
Seems the best way to charge on a trip is to do lots of short segment charg es rather than topping off the tank. So when you pull into a Supercharger the car will show you how much charge you need to reach the next Supercharg er with some margin. You can add more if you want, but mostly it will be 2
0 minute charges. So not so much longer than a gas fillup, but more of the m. I'll find out more in a couple of weeks.
My first trip in the X. I am having a bit of range anxiety because the num bers for range don't seem to be perfect. I wanted to skip the first Superc harger and thought I could based on the 280 miles the battery supposedly ha d when I started. But for whatever reason it went down faster than the mil es I drove. I would likely have been maybe 10 miles short if I pushed on. So I stopped at the first Supercharger for 10 minutes and put 50 miles on it. Those things are FAST! >5 miles per minute!!!
The rest of the trip seems to be going as planned, but I think the on board software for planning the trip could be better along with better indicatio ns of miles to go for intermediate and other stops.
Still, it's pretty nice. Even though I had to stop for two longer charges, the time is well spent staying in contact with the rest of the world and t his group, lol
I'm using the self steering a lot now. It makes for more relaxed driving m ost of the time. When there is a Jersey barrier right next to the lane I t ake over most likely increasing my chances of hitting the wall. Still, how much trust do you have in a machine you have limited experience with?
I've had a few conversations with other Tesla owners while charging. Last night I wanted to eat in Slidell, LA while charging, but I got into a conve rsation with a very interesting couple and with only 15 minutes left to a f ull charge I went to get something to go and ended up eating in the hotel r oom.
Probably the thing about this trip I will remember the most is the contrast between my having spent an obscene amount of money on a car which is reall y just transportation and the many people I saw and met who are living on t he street. It is something that is hard for me to really comprehend.
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