Relay contact ratings.

Could you state the problem clearly please. What is your solution?

I probably don't have a solution - I certainly don't have one that could be accepted.

The problem is the rate at which we can recycle our resources - and this totally ignores any GW issues.

The problems come about because of these conditions:

10% of the world population consumes 90% of the worlds "active" resources.

The "average" person in the world lives in a one or two room house or apartment with little or no yard. They probably easy have access to water and possibly even water in their own house. The water is unlikely to be safe to drink without further processing. The average house is likely to have intermittent electrical power for up to 6 hours per day.

The average household is unlikely to have a form of motorised transport but may have bicycle or animal transport. The average household probably has to travel up to 24hours to access basic health care.

Think poor rural Mexican and your there.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to live like that. I don't want my kids to live like that either.

The problems come about because this is happening:

China, India and Indonesia are rapidly industrialising, which is creating a middle class and a consumer society. They want more, consume more and are no longer satisfied with less.

Basic supply and demand states quite clearly that this demand pushes up prices for all basic goods. Increased demand means it will be increasing difficult and expensive (and eventually impossible) to maintain our lifestyles while the 90% of the rest of the world is increasingly becoming modern consumers. There is no way to stop that growth.

The proposed solutions are:

to increase resource extraction and thereby increase the amount of active resource in the world. This delays catastrophic failure but does not prevent it. With massive expansion of mining and other resource extraction might be increased by 2 to 3 times perhaps, even 10 times if we can mine the depths of the sea, but the current population will require 80 times that amount if they were to develop to the average level of consumption in the developed world.

to recycle - or more correctly to recycle faster. Our best efforts to date have been, collectively, pitiful. Even recycling that is, overall

90% efficient falls short of needs by nearly an order of magnitude.

And all of this is under the most optimistic projection that assumes that energy is unlimited and consumed with little consequence.

The nettle no one wants to grasp is that the entire world has to control it's population. We resist this proposition because we already have too many people and a decreasing population is an invitation to negative economic growth and negative profits (that case is not inevitable but it would require careful management to avoid). No one and no business is prepared for the restrictions required. No government is game to enforce them on their people.

(The possible exception is China who put out the one child policy with just this situation in mind, only they were thinking of it in a limited regional context)

No GW. Just the weight of humanity needing more. That is the end of my "green" speech. BTW, the quote "we have failed..." is from David Suzuki.

--
We have failed to address the fundamental truth that endless growth is 
impossible in a finite world.
Reply to
David Eather
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Poverty is not caused by a shortage of resources but by a shortage of good = government, by greed, by corruption, in short by evil. If you listen uncri= tically to David Suzuki you will end up as ignorant as he is. The Chinese = developed an oversupply of men - last I heard 7 million more than women and= now an oversupply of old people. Brilliant piece of cruelty on their part= . Just think about the numbers of murders they have forced on people. His= ideas are so recycled (proved wrong over and over) and stem from a belief = that people can make themselves good.

Reply to
mrstarbom

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Its a better idea to stop defrost cycle when the exchanger temp rises above freezing. Otherwie you're wasting energy, and at some point the machine will likely ice up.

NT

Reply to
NT

FWIW, those are oft-cited misconceptions. Media drones repeat them without understanding their basis.

The number is ~32 million, and these are people who do not have medical insurance. That is not the same as "extremely poor access" to care. Numerically, some 10-12 million of that figure are illegal aliens, and most of the remainder are young people who voluntarily choose not to buy it. Access is generally good to excellent.

60-odd % is the proportion of people who go bankrupt who, among their other bills, also owe money to their doctors. The number whose medical costs *caused* their bankruptcy is a small fraction.

Last, everyone can get care. There are countless medical programs for the poor.

I personally have an acquaintance getting the full royal treatment, for cancer, for nothing. She's better than most at working the system, but it's there for people who need it, and seek it.

-- Cheers, James Arthur

Reply to
dagmargoodboat

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Yes, we will need one or more thermistors or thermocouples to monitor the temperature.

Reply to
linnix

The 'standard' self-defrost implementation has an additional thermostat on the cooling element, which trips open when the element reaches some predetermined temperature (11C on mine), and closes again at some lower temperature (0C on mine).

11C seems rather high, but I suppose it's intended to ensure that the entire element has defrosted, not just the part near the thermostat. It also means the thermostat need not be that accurate.

Switching the cooling back on immediately after the thermostat trips off seems attractive, to avoid defrosting the stuff in the freezer, but I have some misgivings about the impact on the compressor of starting when the element is that warm.

It's not clear to me why the machine would ice up if the defrost cycle is left running too long.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

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Well, I obviously can't say what you've see, but here's relay with 120V rated contacts.

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Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

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--
By admitting - ergo addressing the fact - that there _is_ a limit to
the application of Moore's Law, your .sig: "We have failed to address
the fundamental truth that endless growth is impossible in a finite
world."  is rendered invalid since you, at least, have not failed to
recognize that endless growth is impossible in a finite world.
Reply to
John Fields

. =A0Could you state the problem clearly please. =A0What is your solution?

.

Wow, I mostly agree, We vote with 'our dollars' every day. If a lot of us ask for products that cost more, but last longer, then someone will make them.

That's the theory anyway.

Till then, buy old stuff and keep it running.

George H.

Reply to
George Herold

Put another way, the world is finite. Panic!=20 '10% of the world's population consumes 90% of the world's resources' is no= t really newsworthy. There have always been really rich people and really = poor people, there just weren't so many of them. =20 What are "active" resources? What makes you so sure there is no way to stop that growth? After all, the= world is finite. :) It is very likely that lifespans will begin to decreas= e due to lifestyle and 'modern' toxins, and at any time thousands could be = wiped out very rapidly by some new plague.=20 Apparently, the Chinese are working on another 'solution'. Having tried bu= ilding without reinforcing, they are now stretching the steel used in reinf= orcing. ;) BTW - how many children do you have? They're more likely to suffer as a re= sult of doing something stupid than because the world is finite. Your desc= ription sounds quite a bit like rural Australia, for some people.

Reply to
mrstarbom

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Mike said _power_ relay. The one in the url you posted is a signal relay.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

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You could design a defrost system like was on the New Inventors last year. IIRC a resistive strip was placed in the freezer, a known voltage passed through it periodically and the resistance of it measured (heat causes resistance to rise, and the more frost/ice formed on the strip the longer it took to heat up and resistance to rise) and turn on the defrost system only when sufficient ice was detected.

Reply to
kreed

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I have worked on a couple of newer Australian made ones here and now they have no relays at all in them. Other brands might have, or older models that are being replaced.

Reply to
kreed

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I have checked a few from my junk box, any that are intended to switch mains power and not signal circuits have a 240v rating. Many were out of junked US made equipment and made in Japan, Mexico or Taiwan.

As they are for the world market, I would think that most would be rated 240v.

One Japan made one that is UL rated has an inductive rating of 5a

240VAC and 0.5a at 120VDC for inductive loads.

5A 120V and 32v for resistive loads.

The contact clearance is about 1mm.

Reply to
kreed

Population projections in 000s(The World Bank)

China 2010 1 338 300 2050 1 273 054

India 2010 1 170 938 2050 1 609 787

By 2050 I expect I'll be past caring. If you Google "population growth rate" for each country,you'll find a nice graph showing the rate is declining. We really do not need to worry about endless growth, except around the waistline.

Reply to
mrstarbom

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A lot of the modern ones use butane as a refrigerant so may be they do not want open contacts in the very remote case of leaks

Reply to
F Murtz

really newsworthy. There have always been really rich people and really poor people, there just weren't so many of them.

In developing countries the "really poor" are on there way to middle class and a consumer society. A trivial example - Pakistan and India both export rice even though there are starving people in their own countries. The owners of the resource sell it overseas because they can get more profit for it. The more the starving can pay for that rice the higher the price will be in the developed world (simple supply and demand).

Simple concept - think usable. Some stuff is usable only once. Other stuff is easily recyclable to be used many times.

No one has yet. I said there might be a solution but that it is probably unacceptable.

After all, the world is finite. :) It is very likely that lifespans will begin to decrease due to lifestyle and 'modern' toxins,

Rubbish. Life span may go down a few years from obesity etc but life expectancy has (in Oz for example) increased by more than 10 years since

1975. It is going to take a whole lot of fat to reverse that - and ill health also consumes more resources.

and at any time thousands could be wiped out very rapidly by some new plague.

20 million have been wiped out by aids - did you notice the population is still growing - its a drop in the bucket.

building without reinforcing, they are now stretching the steel used in reinforcing. ;)

MYOB

They're more likely to suffer as a result of doing something stupid than because the world is finite.

Currently true. May not always be true.

Your description sounds quite a bit like rural Australia, for some people.

Unfortunately, that is a difficult problem.

--
We have failed to address the fundamental truth that endless growth is 
impossible in a finite world.
Reply to
David Eather

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I meant garage door openers :)

Reply to
kreed

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Did not see that but it may also be the case with the newer fridges.

Reply to
F Murtz

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=20

=20

Why would they be starving if they're buying rice? I think it is quite com= plicated. Some developing countries only export when they have a surplus an= d import when there is a risk of shortage. =20 I'd like to see some evidence showing rice is exported when there is a fami= ne. Are you saying they export to decrease the deficit and rely on aid in = a famine? If so it would be evidence of a problem in government not of a sh= ortage of resources. There are supposed to be export taxes or incentives d= epending on the rice volume available in the domestic market. Japan is obl= iged to import (trade agreement) but doesn't sell domestically - stores it = and uses it for aid.

But we should definitely grow our own rice, encourage our rice growers, exp= ort to the world and not become reliant on agricultural imports. =20

Hmmm, I think you made it up. : ) But non-recyclable has been known to beco= me recyclable. Are you sure you don't mean 'nonrenewable'?

Other=20

=20

=20

=20

You may see a marked change over the next couple of generations due to a se= dentary lifestyle etc. The people who are reaching those ages had a very di= fferent life. 'Modern' toxins - I know smoking has been around a while but = there is evidence that it alters DNA. What my grandfather and his grandfat= her did will have some effect on me. What cumulative effect will multiple = vaccines, IVF, late child bearing and drugs have on populations long term? = =20

I realize a thousand isn't significant unless you happen to be one of that = thousand. However, in former times they did not constantly fly all over the= world and the world was not so densely populated. Yet the plague of 1500-=

1520 decreased England's population by 60%. It took until 1750 to reach the= population of the Middle Ages. I don't think you can exclude the possibil= ity of a pandemic which would make aids look like nothin.

A pandemic cannot be called a solution. I'm just trying to point out that = the future is unpredictable. So keep your hair on!

d building without reinforcing, they are now stretching the steel used in r= einforcing. ;)

Oh, I see - nearly as many as Bach. : )

=20

You believe your children will grow wiser or the world will become infinite= ?

.

Excuse me, but I need to make a couple of changes to the following: =20 =20 We need not address the obvious, that infinite growth is impossible in a world which will end. There are many more important and= immediate matters.=20

Are you bored yet?

Reply to
mrstarbom

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