Position Encoding.

Dec 21, 2011 446 Replies

Well, it still seems to be a saleable skill, but only to people to who share your ignorance of more modern alternative. It's roughly on a par with being able to cast horoscopes.

Probably. You should be able to grind flint a lot faster and more accurately than you can knap it.

What I had in mind were modern tools that can do the job that hand- axes were made to handle. Nobody seems to know quite what that was, so it's kind of difficult to identify which of the gadgets you can buy at a hardware as the hand-axe replacement. The phrase "the job" is admittedly ambiguous, but since we don't know what that was it's difficult to construct a sentence that excludes that particular ambiguity.

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The paper was finally published in 1978, but I designed the circuit and laid out the printed circuit board after hours, as a hobby project a few years earlier, when I was working on the project for which the

555 was a hopelessly inadequate candidate component.

It uses MC10102's, and MC10231 and an MC10131 - 10K rather than 100K, but it also uses four Am 685 comparators, which a a bit more prone to complain if you don't give them a well-grounded environment. It was my first ECL board of any sort, realised as a double-sided board with lots of ground plane on both side, tied together with quite a few through the board pins and it worked without modification.

It stopped working a few months later, when one of the through pins proved to have been imperfectly soldered to one side of the ground plane, but that didn't take long to find and fix (if you discount the two hour drive from to Luton to Southampton).

It a a fun project, and probably helped me get my next job - at EMI Central Research - where I was working by the time the paper finally got published.

So we both got into ECL fairly early. I seem to have done rather more with it.

There are lots of applications for the 555 - if very few these days where it is the best choice.

Finding a single application where it is or isn't the best choice doesn't really say much about my point, because it's going to be cherry-picked one way or the other.

group

The evidence suggests that you mostly don't spend any time looking any further.

That must be on sci.electronics.basics.

Here I seem to remember a request for a micro-power 100kHz oscillator, where your answer involved a 100mH inductor.

When I looked around for 100mH inductors that the OP could buy, the only one available seemed to have too low a self-resonant frequency to work at 100kHz. The next inductor down the range had an appreciably higher self-resonant frequency, and I posted an LTSpice simulation that suggested that it could work.

Of course, it drew more power than my preferred solution which - IIRR

- depended two BFR92 wide-band transistors, which happen to have a very low collector emitter capacitance, which is what eats up the power in that kind of circuit.

My solution was also cheaper, more compact and a lot easier to understand, since it was just an elementary based-coupled two transistor multivibrator - the only complication was the voltage division to protect the base-emitter junctions from the collector voltage swing. Wideband transistors have very shallow base diffusions, and Vebo for the BFR92 is only 2V.

But keep on congratulating yourself on your techical skills, Nobody else is going to do it for you.

The wheel might not be big and bulky, but the housing that would accomodate eight detector diodes and let them see only their own own spot on the code wheel is going to be a little more demanding.

If it had been directed at you, who doesn't really understand practical - as in 100mH inductors with a self-resonant frequency above

100kHz - it would have been wasted effort, but it also served to warn the lurkers that you have an exaggerated idea of you own competence.

You aren't as over-confident as John Larkin, but you've got rather less to be over-confident about.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

That rather assumes that I take Jamie seriously. He wants to be an offensive creep, but he's a little too out of touch with reality to manage it.

I changed the subject line because Jamie's closing sentence

"It only shows that you belong with those of quantum physics, a science designed for those that don't know s*it about how something really works."

is really extraordinarily silly, even for him. Quantum physics produces amazingly accurate values for elementary particle properties, but it's also spectacularly useful in practical chemistry, which is a subject that I know rather more about - since my Ph.D. was in physical chemistry rather than elementary particle physics.

It was very easy for me to cull an example from my Ph.D.thesis - which is what I've posted - but there are loads of others around. Of course it would have taken me more work to put get something else into a form I could post.

I do re-read my stuff before I post it, but occasional typos do creep through. Thunderbird has a built-in spell checker, but google groups has much better search options, and even the best spell-checker doesn't catch everything.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

But, you obviously take him seriously enough to respond. Whether he is out of touch or not. You might have more clout here if you didn't respond to idiots at all.

Mama! Daddy! Jamie said bad things to me!

It really is extraordinarily silly, even for you, to take up this argument with a mentally challenged person. Save yourself some shame by simply not responding to him.

Jeeze! You actually have that Ph.D degree? Your behavior here doesn't seem to support that.

I use Thunderbird. There are some mistakes that will creep through, such as valid words used in the wrong sentence. Your violations are worse or I wouldn't even mention them. Turn the damn spell checker on in Thunderbird, Docktor.

Could you guys possibly do us a solid and not cross-post OT stuff like this to comp.dsp?

Eric Jacobsen Anchor Hill Communications

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You, on the other hand, are a master at it.

John

(snip)

Last I knew, there were two tracks. One for the quadrature decoder and one with an index to get absolute position within one revolution. There might be some trick to give an index pulse without a separate track.

The subject of this thread, though, is to find the absolute position much sooner.

-- glen

before

Which you can't even make a mold for.

Probably. Would having more clout here do me any good?

He makes a habit of doing that. What got my attention was the phrase "quantum physics, a science designed for those that don't know s*it about how something really works" which could only have been produced by somebody who really doesn't know how things really work - which is entertainingly self-referential.

"Shame"? I may be a kind of Don Quixote tilting at the nonsense windmill, but nonsense is a real danger to the world, and somebody needs to to do it at pretty regular intervals.

Search on Brian Josephson, who got a Nobel Prize for discovering the Josepson Junction.

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He's several orders of magnitude further out of his tree than I am, and a lot higher in the academic pecking order.

Like I said, I usually post through group.google.com - they offer a more user-friendly interface. You may not like the occasional typo, but they don't impair your comprehension of what I post.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Jan 2012 22:59:23 -0600) it happened John S wrote in :

Interesting stament. We should indeed always remember that QM is just a mathematical model. It need not have any connection with or relation to 'reality'. I while back I came up with: "Math starts where understanding ends". There was Drs math at high school that did send a letter to my parents that she (was a she) "wanted to kill me or so". maybe slightly different words. I do not have a specific problem with math, but as Feynman said: "I could not do this without some model of reality in my mind" (no exact quote). Our brain, with its zillions(tm) of neurons does its own 'simulations' normally based on what it has experienced as inputs. The mathemagission (or mathemagician) uses a very limited subset called 'math' to make a very limited simulation of reality, much more rigid and inaccurate than the neural net can, to make false predictions, or predictions with models based on false equations, like for example global heating [caused] by people. Not a day goes bye without some physisicks inventing an other 'something' that bring 'quantum computing' 100 years closer. A bit like tokamaks and break even nucuclear fusion is always 100 years just around the corner, if funds keep flowing. So to make a too long story too short, QM, being a limited mathematical model used to get some numeric results that can be easily verified in normal ways, is just that.

I am with Jamie on that, and it is fine that QM, and REALLY please read the Feynman lectures on OM, and there are some on the web of videos of his lectures, HE knew at least its limitations. So you did the math (aped it) and was given the PhD as proof that you were a reliable parrot, but you understanding lacks, else you would have been a very famous person who took chemistry to a new level

- Bill.

So wipe your ... with that PhD, it is old, it lost its value the day it was printed, just like the dollar does. So, do not cry .. happiness, is not in a PhD, if it was then most of the world would not be. You can plaster your walls with certificates, but maybe flowered wallpaper looks better. Now about Baxandal.. Oh no.

You cannot always get what you want, but you just might find.. you get what you need. (Stones), I am not a Stones fan.. But even a drug addicts sometimes accidently speak the truth,

I refuse to spell check this after reading the rest.

:-) hehe

.

I've never heard of one, and I think that one could construct an argument to prove that it was impossible

Tim Wescott's idea now strikes me as perfectly practical, now that he has kindly disabused me of one of my ideas that wan't so.

Reading a pseudo-random binary sequence is a bit more demanding that detecting a single isolated index mark, but the two tasks aren't so different that there's any doubt that he could get it to work. Butchering an existing incremental encode and putting in a new disk to be read by the original detectors could be a place to start, but there's no guarantee that it would work.

There are lots of mass-produced incremental deconders on the market. Someone might be able to identify one that might lend itself to this kind of surgery, but this thread does seem to have diversified into other areas - as threads that stretch out to hundreds of posts (this contribution will push it up to 219 if groups.google.com isn't lagging again) tend to do.

My experience is that questions posted here rarely get useful answers, but the threads they spawn give lots of people a chance to develop a better understanding of odd areas in electronics, as well letting nitwits like Jamie demonstrate that they are broad-spectrum idiots, with silly ideas about a wide range of subjects.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

I rescind my last post. There isn't a chance in hell that an idiot like you could ever grasp anything related to a TOE.

Seems to me the best position encoder would be a hard drive and head assembly where the head is modified for a full float at any rpm and direction (dual arm), and no traverse across the disc as a single track is all that is needed. Physical manipulation to a new track can be implemented in cases of failure.

They can resolve to some pretty damned tight counts per rev, and at the outer rim of the disc platter, I am sure the count is more than 8 million. (even at the inner cylinders).

.

If my Ph.D. had any significant matehmatical content (which is not something that I'd claim) it would have been in the work that I did applying the Fletcher-Powell aproach to get reaction rate constants out of the concentration versus time data I collected on the thermal decompostion of nitrosyl bromide; it's an example of non-linear multiparameter curve fitting, which saved me a lot of tedious work

You don't get a Ph.D. for being a parrot - it requires original research. I spent the first year of my project working out that my supervisor's idea of the way I should tackle the project wasn't much good, and was going to require me to do a great deal of repetitive labour. I then worked out an original way of automating the tedious bits - which worked. My colleagues described me as gadget-happy, but the gadgets did what I wanted them to do.

It was a very long way from parrotting anything that anybody else in the vicinity was doing.

level.

If you want to get famous in chemistry, you have to latch onto a problem that looks interesting to other chemists. I got interested in scientific instruments, and it isn't easy to get famous in that area if you start off with a Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry. I might still have made it if I were a couple more standard deviations smarter than average, but you play the cards you've been dealt.

as printed, just like the dollar does.

Actually, it didn't. Getting a Ph.D. is evidence that you've made it through a particular sort of obstacle course. The content of the thesis gets obsolete very quickly - though nitrosyl bromide will still be decomposing at the rate that I measured - but the fact that I got my gear to work and wrote up the results the gear gave me in a way that made sense to the people that examined the thesis is reliable evidence of a particular kind of competence that is frequently useful, and generally pulls down an above-average salary.

On a sunny day (Mon, 2 Jan 2012 05:00:54 -0800 (PST)) it happened Bill Sloman wrote in :

You forgot the subject: QM.

On Jan 2, 12:00=A0pm, John Fields wrote:

ote:

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man#1a121bca22cdca6a

"micro power square wave oscillator" which started on the 1st Julu

2008

It's a pity that you didn't find it at the time. I did at least appreciate the necessity to find a real inductor to plug into the model, which seems to have escaped you back then.

I did.

Either google or LTSpice seems to have scrambled the netlist.

Here's a version that simulates today

Version 4 SHEET 1 880 680 WIRE -288 -128 -496 -128 WIRE 64 -128 -288 -128 WIRE 416 -128 64 -128 WIRE 416 -80 416 -128 WIRE -288 0 -288 -128 WIRE 224 32 -128 32 WIRE 416 32 416 0 WIRE 416 32 224 32 WIRE -496 48 -496 -128 WIRE -128 80 -128 32 WIRE 224 96 224 32 WIRE 416 112 416 32 WIRE 512 112 416 112 WIRE 64 144 64 -128 WIRE 416 160 416 112 WIRE -288 192 -288 80 WIRE -128 192 -128 144 WIRE -128 192 -288 192 WIRE 0 192 -128 192 WIRE 224 208 224 176 WIRE 352 208 224 208 WIRE -288 272 -288 192 WIRE 64 288 64 240 WIRE 416 288 416 256 WIRE 416 288 64 288 WIRE 416 320 416 288 WIRE 224 384 224 208 WIRE -496 480 -496 128 WIRE -288 480 -288 352 WIRE -288 480 -496 480 WIRE 224 480 224 448 WIRE 224 480 -288 480 WIRE 416 480 416 400 WIRE 416 480 224 480 WIRE 416 528 416 480 FLAG 416 528 0 FLAG 512 112 Output IOPIN 512 112 Out SYMBOL npn 0 144 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q1 SYMBOL npn 352 160 R0 SYMATTR InstName Q2 SYMBOL res 400 -96 R0 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value 100k SYMBOL res 208 80 R0 SYMATTR InstName R2 SYMATTR Value 470k SYMBOL cap 208 384 R0 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 100n SYMBOL res 400 304 R0 SYMATTR InstName R3 SYMBOL cap -144 80 R0 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value 22p SYMBOL res -304 -16 R0 SYMATTR InstName R4 SYMATTR Value 100k SYMBOL res -304 256 R0 SYMATTR InstName R5 SYMATTR Value 680k SYMBOL voltage -496 32 R0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value 2V

  • Filename: BFR92A_SPICE.PRM\par
  • BFR92A SPICE MODEL\par
  • PHILIPS SEMICONDUCTORS\par
  • Date : September 1995\par
*\par
  • PACKAGE : SOT23 DIE MODEL : BFR90A\par
  • 1: COLLECTOR; 2: BASE; 3: EMITTER;\par .SUBCKT BFR92A 1 2 3\par Q1 6 5 7 7 BFR90A\par
  • SOT23 parasitic model\par Lb 4 5 .4n \par Le 7 8 .83n\par L1 2 4 .35n\par L2 1 6 .17n\par L3 3 8 .35n\par Ccb 4 6 71f\par Cbe 4 8 2f\par Cce 6 8 71f\par
*\par
  • PHILIPS SEMICONDUCTORS Version: 1.0\par
  • Filename: BFR90A.PRM Date: Feb
1992\par *\par .MODEL BFR90A NPN\par
  • IS =3D 4.11877E-016\par
  • BF =3D 1.02639E+002\par
  • NF =3D 9.97275E-001\par
  • VAF =3D 6.26719E+001\par
  • IKF =3D 3.20054E+000\par
  • ISE =3D 4.01062E-015\par
  • NE =3D 1.57708E+000\par
  • BR =3D 1.81086E+001\par
  • NR =3D 9.96202E-001\par
  • VAR =3D 3.36915E+000\par
  • IKR =3D 1.28155E+000\par
  • ISC =3D 2.79905E-016\par
  • NC =3D 1.07543E+000\par
  • RB =3D 1.00000E+001\par
  • IRB =3D 1.00000E-006\par
  • RBM =3D 1.00000E+001\par
  • RE =3D 1.16450E+000\par
  • RC =3D 2.32000E+000\par
  • EG =3D 1.11000E+000\par
  • XTI =3D 3.00000E+000\par
  • CJE =3D 8.90512E-013\par
  • VJE =3D 6.00000E-001\par
  • MJE =3D 2.58570E-001\par
  • TF =3D 1.54973E-011\par
  • XTF =3D 3.91402E+001\par
  • VTF =3D 2.15279E+000\par
  • ITF =3D 2.13776E-001\par
  • CJC =3D 5.46563E-013\par
  • VJC =3D 3.80824E-001\par
  • MJC =3D 2.02935E-001\par .ENDS\par

or so you tell us

- which is very gratifying - for

Wrong. I just dislike nonsense. I could do without the attention that correcting nonsense seems to generate.

You've found a small detector diode - with a rather small detecting area, which won't help.

Now work out how to mount it so that it only detects light going through a single gap in the encoder wheel, and sees enough light to react sufficiently fast when that gap is open, and doesn't react when all the adjacent gaps are open and its gap is closed. One lens per detector can help collect enough light for a quick transition to "on", but can makes it a bit more difficult to minimise stray light to a level where the detector can't think its illuminated when it shouldn't be.

I certainly didn't say that - if anything the correlation may go the other way, since "an expert is someone who knows the limitations of their expertise".

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doesn't include that particular quote though they do quote "Danish scientist and Nobel laureate Niels Bohr who defined an expert as 'A person that has made every possible mistake within his or her field.'"

Another of those non-existent rules that you invent for rhetorical effect.

-- Bill Sloman, nijmegen

(big snip)

That is why most now have built-in block RAMs that you use as memory. Most are dual-port, which is especially useful to build FIFOs, but also for some other uses. You can still use LUTs as RAM, too.

-- glen

Right. But in the laser controller we're doing now, we needed broadside access to all the words of all the FIFOs, so we had to make them out of flipflop registers and logic. Luckily, FPGAs have a lot of them, too.

John

Not so. You irritate me because, as an engineer, I hate waste and inefficiency.

John

Yeah, but that was for his masters thesis. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

That would work as long as the disk kept spinning at high speed in one direction. Probably billions of equivalent counts. A more general encoder has to work at any speed in any direction.

John

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