Please help with a home invention...

Thanks to you, Wes, and James for the valuable input regarding our little "project."

As a matter of fact, these two individual gates (or lifts or weirs?) are extremely basic and essentially cover holes of about 6 inches in diameter. I'm very inexperienced with all things irrigation, but I believe the city runs these water veins throughout Mesa. As I now recall, yes, it was at one time a small canal way that ran along the side of his home (me and my cousins used to play and swim in them, WOW, my memory still serves me, vaguely). Since then, times have changed and I guess he had the canal covered, then he routed the water underground into two separate paths...basically one to the front yard and one to the back.

Your ideas are awesome and I want to thank you all for the tremendous input. I have to buy more printer ink now because of all the posts (lol). I have yet to speak with my grandfather, as this is kind of a "surprise" for him. Thanks again and I'll try to keep you all posted.

Nathan

Homer J Simps>

Thank you very much, Tom, for this EXCELLENT advice for our project. I don't know where to begin to express my gratitude for the many intuitive suggestions you offer. I found your sump pump situation quite entertaining. Yes, my grandfather's set up is vertical...of course, we could rig it virtually anyway and I kind of liked the reverse door (against the water flow) idea, especially since water would likely still be coming in when it's time to shut the gate. I guess the city "grandfathered" (no pun intended) this irrigation flow to many of its long-time residents as most of the new homes and owners don't have access to this system.

Many of them also don't have almost two acres of land they need to water as well (lol)...and mow for that matter (don't get me started on that route, ha!). Anyway, I appreciate all of your ideas and will express them to my grandfather. Funny thing is, we may just end up doing the simple water bucket idea (discussed in earlier in this thread).

Well, again, thank you and we will try to keep all posted on our progress.

Sincerely, Nathan

snipped-for-privacy@fullnet.com wrote:

Thanks, but that's not a valid option for us at this time.

Nathan

maxfoo wrote:

I think the bucket idea is lousy. Do you have any pictures of the existing setup?

I like the idea of a flapper gate, that naturally closes by water pressure. You could control it with an electric car window motor. They have an "up" and a "down", both presumably with limit switches.

Get an irrigation timer with 2X the control channels as gates that you have, and at, say, midnight, activate "valve 1" which actually goes to the "up" lead of the motor. Just keep it on for a minute or two - the limit switch should turn the motor off. Then, 4 or 6 hours later or whatever, the sprinkler controller opens valve 2, which actually goes to the "down" lead of the motor, and then close it after a minute or so.

Good Luck! Rich

Nate, I am just wonderig what the real problem is - getting up at 3am or so, staying awake untill 5am, or physically attending the flood gate?

Although I am quite a bit younger than your granddad, getting up at 3am or so is not really a problem if you are retired - you can always have a nap during the day.

So, if getting up to let water in was not a problem, the whole thing becomes much simpler. Something like a hand operated boat winch for your granddad to lift the gate, when it is then held open by the pawl on the winch. Then to close it use gravity by just releasing the pawl by one of the methods mentioned - battery op timer working a solenoid, bucket of water etc. No power needed, cheap, simple etc

Anyway, just a thought

David

Nate wrote:... but if you have anything additional for

How far from the house to the gates?

Thanks Rich, I really think that's a GREAT idea!! And the great thing is I found battery-operated control valves at sprinklerwarehouse.com that might be perfect for this. The web address is:

That is, of course, if the 9-volt battery is enough to activate the solenoid that would then activate the power window motor. Then again, maybe with the regular electrical controller version, there would be better "juice" and still fairly easy to get wired up?? Hmmm...anyway, I thought that route might be cheaper and easier than setting up a complete electrical system. I truly like the idea of not having to go through the trouble of connecting the water main thingies, then finding the right bucket, wasting our water, and on and on. It was kind of a nice idea, though...but I really am liking yours a little more now.

As you can probably tell, I'm very 'simple-mided' with this stuff. I'm hoping you might help explain the flapper gate idea. First, I'll explain that the two gates we have simply lift straight up and down over a 6-10 inch sideways holes in the ground. Sorry, I don't have any pics of this. It's just a flat piece of metal with a steel handle that comes up and down. I think I understand that we might be able to take that assemblage off and somehow put the "flapper" right at the 'hole exit' along with a way for it to come up "against the water current."

I'm wondering how the window motor would be rigged to the flapper itself, seeing as when it goes up, it would be on the "inside" part of the hole, I think. Maybe if we use some type of "counter-lever" so that when the window motor pulls up, it affects the direction of a lever so that the flapper comes up against the water toward the inside of the hole. Then, when the motor is activated in the downward motion, it could bring the flapper down to close off the hole (with any outward water current 'helping' the flap to shut even more).

I know I'm fairly close to understanding this and I would love to get any additional points from you about our project. Again, thank you VERY much!

Nathan

Rich Grise wrote:

Hi David, thanks for the post...now that I think about it, you made a point which caused me to realize that my grandpa could simply leave the gates up the "day of" the pending irrigation which I think happen at around 1:30 am (is what he mentioned). Then we could just figure the water situation and set battery-operated solenoid thingies (connected to power window motors or other??) to bring the gates down around 4 or

5 am.

My only concern with this is that I think my grandpa may need to keep them closed until a certain time for some odd reason (maybe a city code?? I dunno), and this will definitely be something I ask him. The reason why I haven't really talked with him about this is merely because I was going to do sort of a nice "surprise!" deal for him. But obviously, I'll need to work with him, especially since he "knows" his home (and worked as a drafter at Motorola, so he's fairly bright). Me on the other hand, well, anyway, I'm trying right?

Anywho, this whole thing came about because when I'd visit sometimes recently, he or my grandma would kind of mention it, like, "Hey, you wanna stay up for 4 hours with me on Sunday morning?" Of course, inside I was thinking, "Uugh!" There's got to be a better, neater, hipper, zipper way to deal with this (lol).

Thanks again for the input and any additional feedback is greatly admired!

Nathan

David wrote:

Hi there, thanks so much for your post. You know, being as 'simple-minded' as I am, I have to admit that I confused myself when taking in your suggestion about the pipes and valves and so on.

But now, it makes PERFECT SENSE!!! I really, really love this idea!! This way, I don't have to worry about motors, buckets, water lines, tons of electrical stuff, etc. Wow! I gotta say this could be THE ONE. Do you think it's possible that I can use a battery-operated control valve for each gate??

I just did some googling and found this:

I think something like this would be PERFECT, of course, if the valve were bigger than one inch. Actually, I just called a "Sprinkler World" here in Phoenix, and the guy mentioned that there are valves around 4,

5, maybe 6" but now the problem might be how the water flow is required to ensure the valve turns off (or something like that?). He said it's possible that there's some kind of sping-loaded valve where the solenoid thingy could handle opening and closing water flow. Sheesh! What a project I have!! He also mentioned I might want to go to some place where they have a lot of knick knacks and discontinued stuff (it's called Apache Reclamation), and see what I could find.

So I might have to go back to the idea of the controllable flapper thing. In any case, these puppies are going to likely need more power (more than a 9V battery, for sure). I found out about "butterfly valves" which are pretty nifty...maybe I can get a butterfly valve with an easy-type lever, that way I can connect the power window motor to it and run that by way of an timer/actuator/solenoid setup?? How much power would be needed to run the cycle of the window motor itself, though?? Should I buy a simple plug-in-type sprinkler controller (so I don't have to worry about wiring as much)?? Then, I would have to run electrical underground, ugh.

Well, I'm still pleased with the direction that all of the posts are taking me and will say again that I very much appreciate all your help.

Nathan

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

[snip]

If you're here in Phoenix, you should eye-ball the "valve". 'Tain't a "valve", it's a "gate" that the irrigator person pulls out until your yard is full, then replaces.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

I wish he'd post some pictures, for general interest if nothing else. :-)

Cheers! Rich

I just find the idea of a remote-controlled gate valve to be a little worrisome because debris or sediment might accumulate in the valve "seat". I've had RVs and trailers, and the sewer dump thingies have gate valves, and I've found that if they're left open for some time (like months) that "particulate matter" can accumulate and make the gate valve very hard to close when it's time to unhook and move the unit.

But it's sounding more like something like an elevator or dumbwaiter could work - a pair of vertical rails, with a sprocket at the top and bottom, and a chain that lifts the gate and lowers it positively, rather than just dropping it.

The flapper valve is like a one-way doggy door - hinged at the top, so it closes under its own weight and water pressure, but I still envision debris making it leaky.

Good Luck! Rich

The flapper system is less likely to jam. Even if it leaks it is easy to fix and little harm done.

Do nail down the parameters. They are essential.

Sorry guys! I've been meaning to get over to my grandpa's place, but have been 'swamped' (no pun intended, lol) with work. If and/or when I do get pics, I'm curious as to how I would post them...I suppose I would just send them as attachments to your individual e-mails. If it comes down to it, I might just create some simple illustrations and send them out to you guys. I do have some rough ones of my original sprocket idea on a napkin or two, thank you, thank you (ha). And yes, if I go there tomorrow (or actually, later on today), I will 'gather the data' like irrigation times, what he does each time, how the holes are situated, etc. I think the hole covers are called 'knife gates' or something to that effect. They just lift up and stay lifted for the water to flow, then are pushed down vertically to close.

I called a few irrigation-sprinkler type stores and I'm initially disappointed with the limitations of sprinkler valve sizes...besides, I found out that such valves require a certain water pressure to properly function and might not work. I wanted to pay a visit to a Sprinkler World today but some friends came over, blah, blah, blah. A few days ago, I did manage to visit a place called "Apache Reclamation" in Phoenix and you wouldn't believe all the GREAT STUFF they have. We're talking everything from old oscillators to power window motors to automatic wenches to discontinued motors, switches, levers, wiring, pipes, old timers, sprockets, chains, the works...ALL KINDS of goodies for experimentations and things. I was truly like a kid in a candy store and I'm glad I found out about it...knick-knack heaven!!

The only thing is I kind of 'overwhelmed' my senses, so I didn't really follow a categorical process to obtain anything. I guess it was more like getting to know what's available. They definitely have things (pipes, etc.) that would act as good fittings for each irrigation hole if I wanted to go that route. I, too, thought about gunk build-up with valves and what not, and I hope that whatever comes of this, it turns out to be easily-maintainable or at least, cheaply-replaceable. The whole motor thing has kind of turned me off because of the seemingly daunting task of figuring out the type of motor to get, wiring the things, electric hazard (water, yikes!), AAH! Well, you guys know...but I'm still quite determined.

I'm fairly sure I'd want to have some kind of programmable setup in the way of a sprinkler system controller (maybe a decent plugin version?), but from there, it gets a little hairy. I need to make sure that it can hook through to activate something electrically (electronically?)...there must be some minimum power requirement (24V?), or, do I just keep it hooked it naturally to a sprinkler solenoid system that could act as the catalyst to some sort of motor? Or, do I stick with the 'ol bucket idea? (Kick the bucket? Bwaha...still kinda like this one, hehe). What I'd love to find (maybe from Apache Reclamation) is a motor like one of you mentioned that has limited rotation (180-360 degrees only, but still strong torque). Most all of the motors I picked up and looked at had RPMs of 2000 or something crazy like that. I'm afraid that if I hooked up one of those somehow to a bicycle-chain-sprocket system, the motor would shoot my setup back to Taiwan or something. ;)

I'm still liking the chain-sprocket and motor ideas, but I just keep thinking of these things:

1.) The right type of motor and how it would connect to the whole system (i.e. wiring, connection to one end of the sprocket so it turns the gate up or down, and the need for switches). You guys had mentioned switches for forward/reverse control, and all that sounds a little complex for me (waaaa!!!) 2.) How would this whole thing stand up to elements like rain, storms, actual use with the irrigation? Would it require too much maintenance? Keep it under a tarp? 3.) Would this contraption simply look bad and attract too much attention? I'm pretty sure this is O.K. since their locations aren't too visible (besides, this question is fairly irrelevant as I really want to make something happen here).

Then again, I still want to talk about the flapper idea, which is still swishing around in my brain as to how I could get it functioning. Truly, I think a power window motor for control (as it already has the wiring, I assume, to be controlled for "UP" and "DOWN") seems technically simpler for me...it competes with my motor-chain-sprocket idea like you wouldn't believe...BUT THEN, there's the BUCKET, hmmm.

Let me pay gramps a visit and I'll take care of some questions so we can get this puppy going. Thanks once again, fellas, for the follow-ups and wish me luck in this great venture! By the way, maybe I could talk to you guys about a robotic invention of mine that I think may have potential in the market. I call it Rubbing Robie, well, anyway, I'll save that one for later, but would still love to entertain entrepreneurial-type inventive discussion with you guys.

Regards, Nathan

Rich Grise wrote:

Post them to news:alt.binaries.schematics.electronic and post a message here advising you have done this.

You're using google groups, so you apparently don't (yet) have access to a real newsserver. The traditional way is to get the addr. of your newsserver from your ISP, and use a newsreader program.

Then, you could post it to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic .

You could find a free website somewhere, and there are places that will let you post pictures, like blogs and stuff; and post a URL.

Good Luck! Rich

As a design engineer (before I retired) I found that sometimes you can come up with several ideas before you happen on the best one. So, I would recommend researching everything very thoroughly down to the last small detail before making a decision. Also, try not to buy anything until you are as certain as you can possible be.

Some valves are made with a rotating cylinder which has two holes in it; the holes are the size of the pipe and are opposite to each other - so when open one canot see the cylinder (except maybe the edges of the holes). When rotated 90 degrees, the pipe is totally blocked. I would guess this kind of valve may have less overall friction than any other method.