Please help with a home invention...

This sounds VERY Arizona?

The trick is that irrigation is a bit of a con game... nominally you have to pay some punk (who has an insider contact to do the scheduling) to pull your weirs.

So you pay, or... in the middle of the night you confront the punk and cut off part (just _part_ for now) of his ear, so that pecking order can be established.

"Uncles" are usually best for this ;-)

...Jim Thompson

What will you use to power the motors?

Nate wrote: . . .

. . .

Any idea you come up with is likely to be as good as mine. However, the first idea that pops into my mind would be to:

1. Make two steel gates similar to the existing gates.
2. Buy the largest sprinkling system valves that you can find.
3. Cut as many holes in the gates as necessary to accomodate the pipe for the sprinkling system valves--obviously, the gates need to wind up being mostly holes.
4. Weld one end of the pipe around the holes in the gates and connect the valves to the other end.
5. Operate the valves with a sprinkling system controller.

Nate yazd=FD:

I would set some design goals thus:

1. Use spinkler timer for control
2. Use readily available motor/gearbox/limit switch for actuation.
3. Must use low voltage power/control to avoid code issues.
4. Use simple swinging valve that is self-closing (uses gravity/water pressure)

So I would consider building a valve that consisted of a flat plate hinged at the top on a horizontal shaft. Water pressure would hold it in the closed position. Opening would be via a cable winding up on another horizontal rotating shaft/drum. The shaft would be turned by a low-voltage motor, possibly a garden variety TV antenna rotor. These are already semi-weather tight.

Old style rotors used to have build-in limit switches that limited rotation to 360 degrees. The modern versions seem to use a second motor running in sync in the control head for directional readout. Some kind of limit switches might be cobbled up at the control end using this idea. Torque requirements would likely require more than

This idea would require only a three-wire low-voltage cable run to the valve.

Have fun.

It sounds like the only problem you have is the mechanical drive for the gates - an irrigation timer will take care of the timing.

Do you have any pictures of your existing gates?

Thanks, Rich

Yours wes, is the best Idea I see. Also if you really want to computer control it, look into x10 active home. It has a controller / timer that connects to the pc and lets you program it for automated actions, even without the pc being on - plus you can do more around the house with it rather then just a timer. You can have the x10 module operate the motor for your gate. I would use wes's idea on the antenna rotor so it will stay at the limit when the power is off. If you do it with the chain lift idea, how are you going to apply pressure to push it back down.

One problem I see with my idea now that I think more about, it is that I assumed some kind of open channel. Like a ditch.

If this is a closed pipe, then maybe not so good.

I think you're right. In poking around with Google, I can see where the figure 15 psi comes up. It looks like there might be some drip irrigation valves available that might work, though.

No matter what he does, he will probably have the problem of power outages.

Yes, well he did say lift the gates which would imply an open canal. So to use the antenna rotor he would need to devise a linkage that can lift and push the gate back down. I would say he would not be allowed to modify the gate itself if it is so regulated.

As long as the flow stops. Rebuild the gate to use a light plastic vane pivoted on the top edge, and opening in the direction against water flow. Easy to open and virtually self closing.

Dunno if retic valves are the same in the US as here, but where I am they use a pilot valve that requires a significant amount of upstream pressure to work. So they may not function in this application.

There are probably a million solutions for this based on everything from a bit of logic to a complete PC. A couple of basic principles...

You may not want to keep your PC running all night, you'd be better off having a simple, 'static' device running continuously, with an interface to a PC if you really need it (you may not).

If you're running power to the motors, you may as well run a control cable as well (but not in the same cable!). Wireless is cool, but it is an overhead, Point to point wiring is simple and reliable.

Nate wrote:

Nathan,

Just a couple of minor points, to try to add to what others have already said:

We don't really have enough information, to give detailed suggestions. You'd have to at least measure the forces or torques required (got a "hanging" scale, like those used for weighing fish when they're caught?), and the mechanical-travel distances required.

If you use a bicycle-type chain drive, as you mentioned, you could keep it more intact, i.e. with two sprockets, instead of just using a piece of it and one sprocket. If it could be set up so that raising the gate requires less than one-half revolution of the chain around the sprockets, then you could just attach a steel cable, or another chain, or whatever, at a convenient point on your bicycle-type chain/sprockets assembly, i.e. on the chain, near the bottom sprocket when the gate is closed, and connect that to the gate.

If the water gate is a rotating/swinging type, which needs the bottom rotated upward, with the top of the gate being more-or-less where the axis of rotation is located, then, assuming you rotate it "against the current" to open it, a flexible connection to the drive/pull chain should work, to pull it open. And the water should close it when your motor turned the other way and slackened the connection. Similarly, you could just use a setup where a motor wound a cable onto a spool or shaft, to raise the gate, and unwound it to allow the water to force the gate closed. (That setup might make it easier for you to adjust the speed and force applied to the gate, by adjusting the spool or shaft diameter versus your motor's speed and torque.) In either of those cases, if the speed of the motor and mechanism were known, you might be able to get by with just a "timer", to tell the motor how long to stay on to open and close it. However, also adding some limit switches, to definitely turn the motor off, when it reached either fully open or fully closed (or just past them, to keep it simpler), would be safer. And, in either case, you'd probably want a type of motor/drive-assembly that would hold its position when not powered, against whatever force the gate might pull on it with, when open. (I think I'd probably also consider putting a spring in line with the pull-cable, just to make life easier (and longer) for all of the mechanical components.

I suppose that, depending on the mechanical requirements of the gate, you MIGHT even be able to use a solenoid (like one out of an old washing machine, from a salvage yard) that, when energized, yanked on the short end of a lever, moving the long end of the lever far enough to open the gate, with a long-ish, soft-ish spring connecting the long end of the lever to the gate, so the solenoid and lever wouldn't jerk the gate open too fast. You could position it however you wanted, and add cables and pulleys, etc, as needed, anywhere between the solenoid and spring.and/or spring and gate. Unfortunately, maybe, without a fancier design, you'd have to keep the solenoid energized the whole time the gate was to be held open. Just food for thought.

If the gate is a type that slides vertically upward, to open, then you might be able to use the bicycle-type-chain-and-two-sprockets assembly, but with a stiff rod or shaft from the chain to the top of the gate, instead of a flexible cable or chain. That way, the motor could also push down on the gate, when trying to close it.

If it weren't for the "problem" of using AC power where it might not be allowed, or wise, and if it weren't too expensive, you could just get two garage door opener assemblies and put shorter chains on them. All of the ones I've seen had four adjustments: open and closed travel limits and opening and closing forces or torques. They're also usually already wireless. And the handheld remotes' switches shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to hack into, to get something else (i.e. electricity) to control them.

Regarding using a DC motor system (Wes's thoughts are good): Depending on what's readily available, in your area, maybe also try to see what kind of DC motors (and maybe even drive assemblies) you can get from an automobile salvage yard. Windshield wiper motors or power window motors might be things to consider.

Alternatively (although I imagine it might be "against more than one of the rules"), get an electric, submersible water pump and just set it in the water on the outside of the gate, with a pipe from the pump coming over to your side, and turn on the pump when you're allowed to extract water. [Maybe you could find something like a household-type submersible "sewage ejection pump" (sort of a bigger type of "sump pump") I have one that had its not-easily-replaceable pressure-switch fail (which meant I had to buy a whole new pump). I attached a few feet of 2-inch pipe to its output and put the pump in a 33-gallon trash can full of water and powered it up. It emptied the trash can within three seconds. And the plumber told me it's spec'ed to handle something like 3/4-inch diameter wooden balls going through it without causing problems. I was going to use it to make a fountain, or something, but haven't gotten around to it, yet.]

If you do decide to also try to use a computer to control things, that's another whole project, but could be a very good learning experience. If you decide to do it, probably after the rest of the system is working and debugged and already controllable via low-voltage DC signals, be aware that there are many different ways to approach it. One easy way is to use the PC's parallel port, since even older (basically free, now) PCs have them, and they have multiple wires that can be used more-or-less independently and simultaneously, for input or output signals, which can be easily "written to" and "read from" with simple commands in most programming environments (e.g. Basic or C). And you can also get very cheap parallel port add-on boards, to add a second parallel port to your computer, if your primary one is already in use. You could do a Google search for something like "PC parallel port control" and probably find everything you need to know. You'd then also probably have some spare input/output pins on the port, which could be used to monitor or control things that you might want to add, later, such as (just for examples) water-level sensors on your side of the gate, or maybe something like a relay that shuts everything down under certain conditions, etc etc.

Good luck!

Regards,

Tom Gootee

Why don't you just put grandpa in an old folks home and be done with it.

Late at night, by candle light, "angel" penned this immortal opus:

Taking a piggy ride, as I missed the OP.

Can't help you with the mechanics, though you do seem to be on the right track.

Anyway, the control sounds just like it would fit a Siemens LOGO PLC. They're cheap and simple to program. and have built-in day/week timers. Might need some extra counters for day-of-month resolution.

You'll need two outputs and inputs for each motor. One output for each direction and the inputs are connected to limit switches on the gates' upper and lower positions.

- YD.

Sorry it took so long for my response. Been very busy lately.

Power for the motors is totally up in the air for me...I was thinking of somehow running some kind of insulated electrical wiring underground or ??? Rechargeable battery?? Ha, solar power sounds pretty neat...hmm, price?? Maybe if it would cost less, something that my grandpa could activate the same day, before he goes to bed, uh, hmmmmm.

After looking at some of these great responses, I kinda like the old-fashion (cheaper, easier) way of hooking the chain to a water bucket that, when activated by the timer, fills up and pulls open the gate...then when the water runs out the little hole(s) in the bucket, the gate can shut. But with that idea, I wonder how well it needs to shut, considering all the water that will be in the yard. Hmmm...guess I should actually check my grandpa's yard when it's going on. Then again, if I use a heavy-enough counterweight, we could be in business.

Another thing I wonder about that water bucket idea is...how could I make it so the bucket doesn't run out of water, hence dropping the gate, for a good 4 to 5 hours. I suppose a BIG bucket and/or SMALL hole(s). Kinda like the idea, but if you have anything additional for a simple guy like me, I would definitely appreciate it. Oh, and yes, we're in Arizona (Mesa).

Thanks again!!

Nathan

Sorry for the late response. Been very busy. This is a great idea! I'm going to tell my grandfather about it. So, basically, when the water starts coming in, that's when the sprinkler timer will kick in the valves, right? Sounds like a good plan! Thanks for your post!

Nathan

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Thank you for your post...I'm relaying this information to my grandfather for further review. Again, thanks for your suggestions.

Nathan

Bruce Varley wrote:

Thank you for your post...I will let my grandfather know about the Siemens LOGO PLC. We like the idea of "budget" for the price. Sounds like we have our work cut out for us. Will try to keep all posted on our progress.

Many thanks again!

Nathan

YD wrote: