OT: Audiophool?

A partial copy of a "discourse" printed in the early 1980s. My comments added in square brackets.

QUOTE: I find that a twisted pair of wires will have consistently better imaging and transparency than a cable made from similar materials assembled into a coaxial configuration. This concept is well accepted by most people experimenting with wire in the San Francisco Bay Area. No one has proposed a rational and documentable explanation for this effect. [perhaps a double blind test is required?] I surmise that the interaction between the electrical and magnetic fields which surround a conductor is different in a twisted pair configuration than in a coaxial configuration. This difference in symmetry affects the perceived imaging differences, indicating that the twisted pair passes phase information more accurately. In my recent experience I have found that because recording equipment uses a balanced configuration, the deleterious effects of even a few feet of coaxial (un-balanced) but otherwise acceptable cable are audible. [Dew tell - a few feet? How many nanoseconds of coax?] Also, most professional equipment uses a different interconnection format than home equipment- Basically, the home equipment standard is a medium output impedance feeding into a high input impedance in an unbalanced configuration (signal "low" is the same as ground). On the other hand, most professional equipment uses balanced lines (signal "low" is not the same as ground, or in other words, both signal "high" and "low" are balanced to ground.) The impedances are lower and in the US generally are the same for the output as well as the input (600ohms). Europe has a more logical standard of a very low output impedance feeding a medium input impedance-Regardless of input and output impedances, professional applications use a balanced configuration. Even in instances where I might be connecting unbalanced equipment, I have followed (mostly for consistency) a balanced configuration. Little did I realize then that this was as significant as it seems today.

1 will evaluate some Belden cables as typical examples of commercially available wiring using these three criteria. This isn?t to suggest that Belden?s versions of these cables are either recommended or not recommended, but they are well known and I have a Belden catalog right here to thumb through. Under "Hi-Fi and Stereo Cables" the catalog lists number 8421 as "Hi-Fi Connecting Cable." Made with 25AWC inner conductor which is built up with three strands tinned copper and four strands tinned copper covered steel, it uses cellular polyethylene insulation, is fabricated in a "coaxial" configuration, and uses a tinned copper spiral wrapped shield. Thus, it meets only one of the three suggested criteria for acceptable audio interconnect cable (insulator). Under the same heading they also list number 9456 as a "Low Capacitance Stereo Connecting Cable " Other than a slightly lower capacitance per foot (between conductors) specification (12pF/foot vs 18pF/foot for 8421) it is similar to 8421. The inner conductor is 30AWC tinned copper covered steel rather than the composite copper/copperweld inner conductor in 8421. It too is acceptable only for its insulator. Still worse, both use a copperweld inner conductor - and you can hear the steel. [yea, sure, and there is this bridge in Brooklyn..] Listed under "Computer Cables" is number.9721 [that is a control cable, 8 unshielded pairs; try 9271] which 1 have used on several occasions for long permanent microphone lines. It has two 25AWG stranded tinned copper conductors in a twisted pair configuration, uses polyethylene insulation surrounded by an overall "Beldfoil" (aluminized mylar) shield. This cable is acceptable both for insulator and configuration. END QUOTE
Reply to
Robert Baer
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It is possibly just about true since typically coax will have about twice the capacitance per unit length of twisted pair cable so the higher frequencies will get phase shifted a bit more by the coax. You could certainly measure the difference with the right test signal but whether or not you could hear it in practice I don't know.

Balanced twisted pairs certainly help avoid inductive interference.

Back then they were into insane power amplifier badnwidths and slew rates which tended to interact rather badly with capacitive cables. ISTR some consumer designs were only marginally stable.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

Apparently people can hear quite minor differences.

One of the engineers working with me at Cambridge Instruments in the early 1980's had come to us after working with Rupert Neve on mixing consoles, and he had a story about some recording engineer who was unhappy with his Neve console.

Neve's crew went in and tested everything, and could only find a narrow dip at 56kHz (which they fixed) but since you can't hear anything at 56kHz they figured that they were going to have to come back the following day to check in more detail - for intermittent faults and the like.

They didn't have to. Fixing the dip at 56kHz had solved the problem. Presumably the recording engineer could hear the phase anomaly that came with the 56kHz dip and went away when it was fixed.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

You may find some of that hard to believe but guess what, from what I just read, it pretty much covers it.

Balance pairs is an obvious thing. Twisted wires is also another obvious practice. Look at how fast they can send data over network cables? They wouldn't be able to do that if the twist wasn't in a twisted bunched format for long runs.

As for the clad wire, yes, there are issues there. At some frequencies eddy currents actually exist and do have some adverse effects. But like I said, that really depends on the frequencies.

Small gauge wire has been known to work well in many cases due to the DC R that is in the wire. This lowers the Q in the wire and thus, reflections tend to be reduced.

The best wire for many applications is a small braid used as the conductor with a cotton thread in the center. That is, the thread is the body for the braid to go around. This makes it durable and flexible and surface will act much like litz wire.

Jamie

Reply to
Jamie

I would not be too surprised, if the unbalanced and balanced connection would behave slightly differently. At some cases, the balanced topology might cancel some even harmonics.

However, if we look at the system level and not just at a single device, there are very similar issues as in unisolated unbalanced RS-232 vs. balanced RS-422/485 vs. insulated digital interfaces, but much smaller interface levels will cause problems in audio systems.

If we have just two interconnected audio devices, which are independently battery powered, with no external connections what so ever, I do not expect any significant differences between unbalanced vs. balanced connections.

The situation is different, if both are mains powered or even if the other is battery powered, but has a ground connection e.g. through the cable TV ground. The mains power supply has some stray capacitance between primary and secondary and some current will flow through the interconnecting cable shield to the other device power supply or directly to ground.

In a balanced system, any moderate interference current flowing in the shield has practically no effect. In an unbalanced system, this interference current will create a voltage drop in the shield and connector resistors, which are added directly to the audio signal.

Adding a third and more devices into the system will complicate the situation even further, making it quite hard to analyze.

In audio systems, unbalanced systems can cause problems even between equipment in the same rack, while in unbalanced serial communication systems, you are asking for trouble, if you try to communicate between different rooms.

Of course, the descriptions that audiophiles use are often quite hilarious :-).

Reply to
upsidedown

Actually your ear can demodulate ultrasonic waves. This is used for keeping audio locally. Google 'soundspot'.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
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Reply to
Nico Coesel

OK, stop right there!

What the HELL are "imaging and transparency"? What units are these measured in? PicoFarads per fortnight, perhaps?

Although it makes no sense in home stereos, in larger audio installations it may be necessary to terminate long runs of coax to prevent refelections. Does anybody ever terminate a 50 Ohm coax in audio practice? I've never seen it done. For that matter, do they terminate mike cables and other balanced audio runs? (Presumably 110 Ohms or so.) Not sure I've seen that, either.

But, in general, most of that stuff was so laughably nuts it made great humor material! Like the person who had a big fit over the type of air line used to bring bearing air to the air bearing turntable. There were "huge" differences to be heard in the sound depending on which sort of air hose material was installed.

And, of course, the guys hooking their 15 W class-A tube amp to speakers with welding cables.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

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I didn't discover it - I got it second hand from a guy who'd worked for Rupert Neve.

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I'm sure Rupert Neve has his own ideas about what was discovered there, and what was reported may have been over-interpreted.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Reply to
Bill Sloman

That configuration was used by the phone company, especially for handset cords - which seems to last almost forever.

Reply to
Robert Baer

Recording studio?, Ocracoke Island Realty?, Home Audio Satellite System?, D-TAR? etc??

Reply to
Robert Baer

s.

ve seen

Did you read the response from the head of Blue Jeans Cable to Monster Cable when Monster Cable sent them a cease and desist order?

Makes excellent reading. They should never have attacked a technically astute lawyer.

Reply to
Robert Macy

Yes, I was told that our place used to make millions of feet of that wire years ago.

It isn't a very fast product to make. The braiding takes time. There is another version of it that can be produced much faster and that was a

2 lane spiral twist. You'd pulled 2 groups of 5 or more wires from two different angles to form an overlapping spiral, over a cotton rip cord.

That was very effective in flexibility and noise canceling. A lot of that was sold to audio markets as well as communication hand sets, mic cords etc..

Jamie

Reply to
Jamie

IME, most experimenting carried out in the Bay area, in the 1980s was with mind-altering substances. Maybe "wire" is a euphemism ;-)

WTF is "imaging and transparency", BTW?

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence 
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
                                       (Richard Feynman)
Reply to
Fred Abse

If you have ever listened to the same music on a variety of high end (and even not so high end systems) there are obvious differences even to my untrained ears and far more significant to a trained musician.

Imaging is a short hand for the sense that the original instrument is sat at a particular place behind the speakers and does not shift about depending on exactly what note or chord or how they are playing.

This is quite funny since about half the domestic installations I have seen have one speaker with the wrong polarity so the image is mush! Switching source to mono clearly demonstrates this but they don't thank you so I have given up pointing out this common mistake...

Transparency is harder to define but is usually taken to mean that it reproduces what is there and doesn't add or subtract anything. A lot of loudspeakers fail on this rather dismally and they are characterised in large part by the size of their boxes and placement in the room. (and the room resonances and furnishings)

You can incidentally put together systems that are on paper wonderful in terms of analytical perfection that are not nice to listen to because you also get to hear every badly done editing glitch as well.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

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