Most awful hack job, but my kid likes it

cleared

point

Not exactly. I think it's safe to say that we that choose not to smoke (I still enjoy the occasional cigar, and even light a pipe on occasion) would like to live smoke free. That includes when we are dining, when at work, or when walking in the park. The problem with smoking is that when you partake of your pleasure, it doesn't stop with you----everyone around you must endure it. For some it may be no bid deal, but what about those that have allergies, or perhaps a serious medical condition?

I've long maintained that if people living in a civilized society don't self regulate, they will be regulated. Smokers, for years, didn't give a rats ass if their habit bothered others------they just lit 'em up----to hell with the other guy and his needs and wants (I can say that, I used to smoke my pipe). It's gone full circle now-----and while I respect your right to smoke, I fully expect you to respect mine not to. If you must smoke in public, do not exhale. Do not allow your ciggy to smoke away in an ashtray, stinking up the environment so badly that anyone but a smoker is repulsed. Now if you choose to smoke at home, that's your castle, and I have a choice to visit, or not. I fully support your right to destroy your own life with tobacco. Just please don't force me to destroy mine in the process.

Let me tell you, Richard TDL, you and I are on the same page where that is concerned. I was born and raised in Utah, but was not of the faithful. I know what it's like to be a minority from the standpoint of religion (you can include ethnicity). That's one place you are truly made to feel like a leper. We may be closer together than you realize on these issues.

Chuckle! Except in this case, it was a bleeding ulcer that caused me to abandon my cherished pipe, not religion or other things. The rest is just good sense, self preservation. I'm old and want to live to be a little older. I have a lot of unfinished business-----why shorten my limited time on this earth with smoke induced cancer? (Yeah, I really believe it does-----don't you?)

Harold

I disagree. I also don't think people should have the right to fire a firearm indiscriminately in a crowd.

I have been the victim of one of these people, via a burglary that might not have occurred had this individual not been a drug addict. My loss was severe, and not insured. 28 years of mementos from my life with Susan were taken, never to be returned. These people are not victims of a disease, they chose to use drugs, secure in the knowledge that not one person has been known to improve their quality of life with drugs, but many have died as a result. Go beyond that----what kind of example are these people setting for children? Assuming you have "young-uns", how would you feel if you found them with needles sticking in their arms?

Can't have it both ways, can you.. If a person does drugs, it's usually just a matter of time until their habit is beyond their means and they resort to crime. Many also operate their vehicles while under the influence.

I'm totally against the use of drugs, and feel it is not the *right* of anyone to use and abuse them. Doing so is almost NEVER without cost to humanity-------so in a sense, the right of a person to do something stupid doesn't override the rights of others to not have something stupid committed against them. I am not sympathetic towards drug users.

Harold

overpopulation?

their

Seeing as you wish to reduce this to insults, MORON, your right to do with your body ends when *your body* is functioning irratiionally and you kill me with your car, which you shouldn't have been driving because of your altered state. Don't tell me I'm wrong when you ignore the facts.

When did you notice me in your office?

Idiot.

Harold

their

not

usually

I don't mean to sound like an ass, Robert, it's just that I've never seen one person benefit from drug use, and have seen many hit the bottom---including an attorney, who lost his marriage and over $2 million due to cocaine abuse. I know that to be true, his ex is married to one of my close friends.

What has happened to us, that we can't find pleasure in the good things in life? Mind you, I'm not coming at you from a religious perspective. I consider that just another narcotic. I'm simply saying that I've enjoyed life at its fullest when I've had a clear head and mind. I don't need anything to boost me along, and pity those that do. They are truly missing out on life's real pleasures.

Be well,

Harold

Like you, I'm entitled to do as I please in my own home and shop. I do not do so in public, nor do I feel that the public must endure my abuse. Yes, I want a smoke free environment. I don't take pleasure from smelling other's smoke while I dine. That's why I don't smoke a cigar in public. Grow up.

I'm also adult enought to have a civil conversation with others, a quality you seem to lack. Or is that how you behave when you have egg on your face? Sheesh! What a moron.

Harold

smoke

occasion)

not

Yes,

quality

face?

Sorry to report, I don't. I drive two of those Cummins diesels that smell so good. :-)

Harold

Yep, it ended the criminal industry, but it didn't stop (or even slow) alcoholism, which still kills or maims thousands every year. So, we lowered one problem, but didn't solve the root problem.

Nope, the problem is in the human animal. While there is a small minority of folks who are able to 'handle' drug use, most of us poor schmucks soon find ourselves using more and more of them, or using them inappopriately, until one of two things happen: We kill or hurt ourselves or someone else, or we wise up and completely stop using them. That is reality, as much as some wish (or deny) that it is.

Charlie

Here, you're absolutely wrong. I have the right, given to me by my creator, whether random chance or cosmic leviathan (or my Dad and Mom), to do whatever with my own body that I wish to do.

I do _not_ have the right, however, to adversely affect you physically, which is what bullets do. And if you stay the f*ck out of my office, you can refraining from inflicting my smoke on yourself.

Ideologue.

Feh, Rich

You f****ng hypocrite. _You_ claim you want a "smoke-free" world, while you "enjoy the occasional cigar, and ... a pipe..."

Fuck off and die.

Rich

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 21:20:24 -0800, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote in Msg.

That is covered under emission, see 2).

And why is that? Because drugs are illegal, and therefore only available at high prices on the black market. Legalize drugs and dry out the crime.

The alcohol prohibition didn't stop alcoholism. It just created a huge criminal industry, which promptly ceased to exist when alcohol became legal.

That's bad, and I can's see how that can be avoided.

Well, I think this is a very limited worldview, although I can understand how you arrived at it given your personal experience with what I would call a result of drug illegalization, not of drug consumption.

That much is clear.

robert

Im curious Harold..what all electric vehicle do you drive?

Gunner

"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed, the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line of defense." --Walter Williams

snip-----

smell

Cute, Gunner, and maybe even clever, but I really do expect more from you than that. For one, as a person that I hold in high regard, your smoking is killing you-----as the doctors have already told you. You do remember your incident of a year ago, yes?

The subject at hand. The harsh reality is I must be able to travel, as must you. I drive about 26 miles, one way, to town, which I do once per week. My truck, the '94 Dodge Cummins, delivers right at 22 MPG. Pretty damned good for a 3/4 ton vehicle. We generally haul back the construction items we need for our project, do our weekly shopping, and maybe stop for a burger. We're pretty low key people, and don't need luxuries to make us happy. From that, you can deduct that, at least to us, driving is a necessity.

You, on the other hand, smoke cigarettes that are consuming your income at an unreasonable rate, injuring your health in the bargain. I'm not sure I can see a connection between your habit, something that has no redeeming value, and my once per week trip to town. Beyond that, you may just be depriving me of a friend (you) by being stupid, paying good money buying tobacco to destroy your health. I'd rather have you around for a long time. Sorry!

Susan's father died at age 47, when she was 5. He was a smoker, and died of cancer of the lung. Susan's brother was buried in July, age 58, from cancer of the liver, having carried hepatitis C for years. He had quit smoking a year ago or so, so that's not likely a connection. Paul Desmond, likely the finest alto sax man to have lived in my time, died at age 52. He was a chain smoker. I would have enjoyed hearing from him for many more years. Yeah, I'm selfish like that.

Get it, Gunner? I'm concerned, not only for me, but for you. You don't have to smoke, you choose to. I must drive to town, at least infrequently.

Be well,

Harold

So then you have no problem with polluting the air that I breath? And the difference between your secondhand smoke and mine is what again?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

While I deeply appreciate your concern about my health (and Im doing rather well in minimizing my smoking, though still yet unable to quit completly), the comment I made was germane to your comments about other people messing up your air. While rightious indignation about the tiny amounts of nastys that cigarette smoke contains is interesting...bragging about owning and operating a monster polluter of the air, ground and water in the next statement is hardly something condusive to basing your moral high ground on.

Just holding your feet to the fire, old friend

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

snip---

All likely true, but a poor *smoke* screen for the topic at hand. I think both of us would agree, in the course of living our lives, there are some risks. It's up to us to determine those that are a necessity, and those that can be avoided. If I must travel, which I must, I try to do it as economically and safely as possible, keeping in mind that my purpose in doing so must be fulfilled. Thus, I'm trapped in a world where I must own a small truck. I've yet to find a way to haul 12' 2 x 4's in a car without limiting the number, or causing considerable damage to the vehicle, for example. Mind you, I'm not bragging because it's a smoke belching, polluting device, but more so because it provides considerably more performance and economy than do its counterparts, gas powered engines. My second truck replaced one that was yielding scarcely more than 10 MPG. Fewer pollutants per mile. When I drive it, that is.

One of the things I've done of late is not travel. I drive only when I must, so my vehicles stay in the garage. One of them, purchased new in '99, has only 13,000 miles on it. The other gets started usually only once per week. Seriously! The one with 13,000 miles I use almost exclusively for travel, at which time I drag a small travel trailer. Motels don't suit my needs. The trailer has not been licensed for the current year, and the truck hasn't left the garage in the past year save for once, when it was used to haul building supplies. The truck in question has a 10' enclosed box, so it's great for keeping things out of the weather, a serious consideration when one lives where it rains 60"/year. So then, like you and your smoking, I'm doing my best to "cut down". I'll eliminate my share of the pollution only by stopping driving. I can't help but think it's the same with you and your smokes. Yet I sympathize. I do understand it's not easy to quit. I know folks that have tried many times, with no joy.

Electric vehicles do not eliminate pollutants. They do, however, lower them, and create them at a different location, sort of out of sight, out of mind. You do realize that much of the power generated is done by burning coal. Only not driving eliminates pollutants.

By contrast, my father, who had smoked for over thirty years, pulled a pack out of his pocket one day, looked at them., and tossed them out the window, never to touch them again. He made a decision that day, and it was to quit. He did.

You can do it, Gunner. You haven't made the decision to do so yet. I'm confident that's true----you have too strong of a personality to have it not be so. And I'm surprised, considering your survivalist instincts and training.

I accept you, smokes or not. Not picking on you , old friend. Just holding your feet to the fire as well. Not because of my moral high ground, nor from my religious views, which do not exist. It's only because I care. I worry.

I think I said that before. :-)

Harold

do

must

items

at

be

died

having

died

infrequently.

Just curious - when you are smoking outside in a light breeze, do you hold the cigarette so the smoke off the hot end blows in your face?

Of course. Just like you run a flex line from your tail pipe into the cabin of your vehicle.

Oh..and I didnt inhale.

Chuckle

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Not necessarily. But if I did, would that give you some sort of perverse satisfaction, like enacting your little revenge fantasy by proxy?

And, in kind, when you start your car, do you go and joyously inhale the exhaust fumes just to prove how self-righteous you are?

Thanks, Rich

hold

No, but I have noticed that smokers don't hold their cigarettes so the smoke from the hot end doesn't blow in other people's faces.

You really don't get it, do you?