Most awful hack job, but my kid likes it

Right, because correlation indicates causation now, does it? Or, are you just parodying someone who doesn't understand logic? It's so hard to know.

Dave "...or care..." Hinz

Personally, I'd prefer the Terrorist acts to be confined to US soil rather than exported and exacerbated on European and Near East soil.

than exported and exacerbated on European and Near

Personally, I think you're a troll and/or watste of skin, bits, and time.

Ill bet Bush was the cause of all these too..right?

Terrorist Attacks (within the United States or against Americans abroad)

1920 Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.

1975 Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.

1979 Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982?1991 Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983 April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut. Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984 Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military. Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985 April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82. June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed. Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya. Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986 April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9. April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988 Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993 Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995 April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.) Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996 June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998 Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000 Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001 "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

If we wanted to kill all of "them"....you would already be bulldozed into a mass grave with the rest of "them"

You still being alive, is proof you are wrong.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

The rank and file are being replaced far faster than they are being killed or captured. As for the management, that's a two-edged sword. There's no doubt that a fair number of al Quida leaders have been taken (although there are plenty of important members still at large). That cuts out people with experience and administrative skills, leaving the remains less organised. But it also cuts out those with wisdom, patience, foresight and restraint, who command respect from the younger recruits. Enthusiastic but leaderless terrorists can be just as dangerous - if we ever progress towards peace, they are even more of a problem. Look at conflicts like the IRA and Palestine - every now and again, the leaders of the main groups agree on a cease fire and peace talks, and then some half-wit young group does its own thing, sets off a bomb, and claims to be part of the main organization.

In this group here, I couldn't ask for a greater compliment. I'd sooner expect to see pigs fly than have anyone here change their beliefs or opinions based on these discussions!

Wahabism is a particularly extreme form of Islam (and they don't want to cut off your head - they want to convert you to Wahabism, and will only cut off your head if you refuse). There are plenty of Christian sects who feel anyone outside the group is damned, and it is their obligation to convert as many people as possible in whatever way works. Fortunately, these groups exist within a society and culture that (for the most part) condemns violence, thus they are not violent, while Wahabists and other extreme Islamist groups live in a society and culture where violence and death is a more normal part of life. There is not any real difference between Christianity and Islam - it's just a difference of time and place. Norway was converted to Christainity by the simple method of the king's army going from town to town offering people the choice of Christianity or death.

But we both condemn the extremism and the violent ambitions of Wahabism, which is bin Ladin's brand of Islam (Islam is on the whole, like Christianity, a religion of peace and tolerance). The question is what to do about it. I can certainly think of a few bad plans - give enormous political, economical and military support to Wahabists dictatorship regimes (such as Saudi Arabia). Perhaps destroy a relatively secular country, and crush its people until they have no source of motivation left except to run to the welcoming arms of religion. Fight unmotivated wars in an effort to turn the entire world's Muslim population against you, and make martyrs and folk heroes out of Wahabists extremists like bin Ladin. It's not really that smart a plan, is it?

Having buggered things up so dramatically, it's not clear what the US should do now. If you pull out of Iraq, there is little doubt that there will new terrorist attacks on the USA. But if the US made it clear they had stopped messing with the middle east, then it is far more likely to be attacks from the splinter groups you created than from "official" groups. You are just going to have to grin and bear it - you've brought it upon yourselves, and you can't avoid it entirely. It won't last long - suicide bombers don't attack if they don't have good reason.

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:56:22 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote in Msg.

POW status hardly includes the rights of full citizenship.

If people are brought here against their will by a nation which, by doing so, claims to blaze the trail to human rights and democracy, they should be treated by the standards their captors proclaim.

Not being imprisoned unless sentenced by a criminal court of justice is such an elementary right.

Let's remember that we know nothing about these people except that they were picked off the streets during an invasive military operation and then were declared "illegal combatants" -- a term coined only to avoid having to treat them as POWs. All this stinks.

robert

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:56:28 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote in Msg.

This kind of sentiment is awfully close to that which drove my grandparents (ironically) to the US, thereby escaping certain death for having been declared illegal in their home country. Their offense? Being Jewish.

robert

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.] On 15 Nov 2005 16:43:19 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote in Msg.

And what has Bush's more effective response got us? More terrorism all over the world, and a hugely increasing number of candidates to commit the next 9/11 (whatever it may be).

robert

Gunner Asch wrote:

Why should I research Executive orders or some sort of rubber-stamped signed papers? The world's media, including (at last!) the mainstream American press, have made it perfectly clear that torture has been used in a number of American bases and on a large number of prisoners, with both Americans and sub-contracted other nationals carrying out the torture. I've no doubt that some of the reports are exaggerated or even fabricated, but I've also no doubt that there have been plenty of incidents that were never reported. There is no doubt that this treatment of prisoners was not a matter of isolated incidents by disobedient troops. There is no doubt that the mistreatment has not stopped despite Bush's claims that the USA does not support torture. There is no doubt that Bush has had his lawyers investigate the legality of torture, with a view to using it. There is no doubt that Cheney has being trying to stop legislation banning torture, and to at least reserve the "right" of the CIA to torture (despite top CIA officials protests that torture does not work). This all adds up to torture being part of the official US policy. Whether it happens to be written down in laws or not is irrelevant, as is what Bush says in front of the press. When a mafia boss orders that someone be "dealt with", is he less guilty just because he didn't sign off on a bit of paper, or because he didn't use the word "killed"? In any crime hierarchy, the top people try to keep their noses clean, and avoid paper trails, but there comes a point when every finger points in the same direction.

Show me proof that the US administration condemns torture, and immediately investigates all claims of torture at its facilities? Show me proof that anyone involved in torture, from the lowest to the highest, is investigated, tried, and punished for it? And I don't mean just a couple of grunts used as scape-goats. Show me the proof that when the CIA fly people around in their unmarked jets to unknown destinations (refuelling, on a couple of occasions, at my nearest airport), they are really just going off for a party at the US taxpayer's expense.

If you want to argue that torture is justified under certain conditions, or that these terrorist (suspects) deserve it, that's fair enough. I'd disagree, obviously, but it's a standpoint I can understand. But don't try to claim absurdities like torture isn't carried out with the blessing of the US administration.

Why would I want to define it? The only reason to define it is so that you can draw a line, and say it's okay to beat suspects up a bit, but not too much.

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.] On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:37:29 -0500, George Willer wrote in Msg.

They shoukd just have installed SCHUKO sockets to get rid of the problem altogether.

robert

Is this the same Media that gave us Dan Rather and Memogate?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

They're all on the SED side of the crosspost.

--
  Keith

Explanation, please? (Please post your reply on RCM. I do not follow SED)

Harold

What really disgusts me about the antis is the huge amount of money - tax money, _our_ money - that they're lavishing on that "oh, do you need help quitting" kind of propaganda.

Fuck, man! If you don't want to smoke, just f****ng _DON'T SMOKE_! "Gee, I couldn't prevent myself from pulling my car into the store lot, getting out, and plunking down four and a half bucks for these things I'm so desperately trying to get out from under the grip of ..."

Grow the f*ck up.

But, I guess we're possessed by Demon Tobacco, and need to be Saved.

Feh. Rich

Please write your suggestion again... this time in English.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am. The actual "scientific method", that is, not the kind where you design experiments that are guaranteed to "prove" whatever ideology your crusade is about.

Oh, in spades! I was a document coder on two different tobacco litigations, and saw thousands of ducuments. I've not only seen the "studies" that you cite, but I've also seen the refutations, that are backed up by actual _facts_, rather than passion. The crusaders used fudged data, and violated their own standards for statistical accuracy!

This guy does a good job of exposing the lies/propaganda, but you'd have to bother to read it, and if you're already convinced, there's clearly no point in trying to confuse you with facts:

Just read the above web site - you'll find out that it's even worse.

Hmm. I'll take that as a compliment! :-)

Thanks! Rich

At least you're open about your bias.

Not a big fan of science, are you. You are aware of the peer-reviewed studies showing the cause:effect relationship between smoking and cancer, right? Not at all the same thing as "9/11 happened after the election", and I suspect that you know that.

"Ironic" doesn't even begin to describe the fact that you wrote this, here, now.

Last I checked, the US hasn't been the recipeint of the promised "event which would make 9/11 look like nothing".

Hm. Let's see. US responds strongly, keeps someone known to have used WMDs from giving them to the group which has attacked us. US doesn't get attacked.

"all over the world" wrings their hands and doesn't act decisively. "all over the world" gets attacked.

Yup, there's a pattern here, no question about that.