Linux in a product

This may not be the exact group to post this to but I'm more likely to get the right answer here.

Let's say I had a product idea that involved a simple motherboard and an operating system.

I had thought that Linux was the way to go but seeing that many of the distributions are for "non commercial" use only.

What possible ditributions of Linux should I look at for inexpensive fees or preferably no restriction use?

This is a simple idea and want an operating system that would be easy to learn (and not overkill).

There is no reason why you cannot build linux into a commercial product - there are tens of thousands of set top boxes out there that do just that. What you have to be careful about is modifications to source code of any software in it.

Ian

In short: you must make teh source code of your product available of parts you took from 'linux' - thus also the modifications.

As for non-commercial use: these will not be based on copyright of code under the GPL license.

The vendor may have bundled other code with a different license, or, as I understand it, use a logo and other trademarked items (such as their name).

Using Linux can be free, but it still is copyrighted software: you need to understand the license to see how to do things and what your obligations are. And some things are not allowed.

Thomas

Do a web search on "Embedded Linux". You'll find a wealth of information.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Thanks, but what I'm really asking is something much more basic from the standpoint of someone who isn't a software engineer.

I do dabble in PICbasic and visual basic and my intention would be to write the program in VB to work with a (pre written version) of the Linux operating system.

So, what I mean is, can you take a motherboard and use some version of the Linux operating system.....(I'm talking one of the multitude of distributions out there.....Lycoris, etc) and get away with actually using their software in a product, license free? Is there anything out there that I could use?.....or are they all for personal non-commercial use?

If not.....what about something else, like freebsd or maybe even a free dos or something?

I'm just looking for someone to put me on the right path if something like this is possible...

(1) dummy programmer but loves to learn (2) motherboard and unrestricted operating system (3) makes simple product with his VB friend

No, like I said before, all versions of Linux can be for "commercial-use". There are NO version of *Linux* that is for "non-commercial-use". You just have to understand what you need to do to comply with the licensing.

Basically the following applies to ANY/ALL Linux:

1. You can freely use and distribute Linux with your product.
2. You MUST allow others to freely use the Linux you use.
3. You MUST distribute the LINUX source code. (posting it to a website like Linksys did is good enough).
4. You DO NOT NEED to pay ANYBODY to use and distribute Linux.
5. You CAN ask people to pay you for your distribution of Linux (think RedHat).
6. You DO NOT NEED to distribute the source code of your application/program/executable running on Linux.
7. You DO NOT NEED to allow others to freely use your application/program/executable running on Linux. Protect it any way you see fit: serial number, dongle, encryption, lawsuits etc..

Yes, ALL/ANY version you like. And you don't have to pay anybody for it. Just remember the rules above

There are lots of examples of everyday devices running Linux. Virtually all Linksys products run a version of Linux. My Aztech ADSL modem runs Linux. So yes nobody is stopping you from doing what you want.

OK, this is not really replying to the original question but just my $0.02.

All software are creative works and therefore protected by copyright laws. This allows the author to seek compensation for his work. Most software does this by requiring the user to purchase a license to use it. Most authors seeks money for the purchase. Linux and other GPL software is different. You must still "purchase" a license for the software. But the author does not seek money. Instead the author wants you to agree to the terms of the GPL license in order to use the software.

GPL basically boils down to:

1. Always distribute the source code.
2. Any changes to the source code are automatically covered by GPL.

This is what you pay instead of money in order to use Linux in you product.

You most certainly can sell *Linux* as your product. What do you think red hat, et al do? What you can't do is sell Linux as your product and restrict the customer from doing anything with it that is permitted by the GPL, including sharing it with or selling it to others.

The Python license basically boils down to: "you can do whatever you like with me". Thus embedding Python on top of a miniscule OS is also a possibility.

Yes, but you have to be carefull not to 'distribute' it. There's a definition in the GPL. I could very well be wrong about the details, but it's something like if anyone other than one of your employees uses it outside of your facility, you've distributed it - with contractors

*not* counting as employees.

"Michael" skrev i en meddelelse news:WfOdnf6RAKd_jvvenZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com...

I think Visual Basic is Windows Only - and bound hard to Office et. al.. There are ways to get Windows to run on top of Linux, but we are begining to look like an elephant on a traffic cone here.

As others have said. You can do whatever you like as long as:

1) you do not sell *Linux* as your product. A box with Linux installed on, carrying your brand can be your product - the box that is, not Linux itself. 2) you do not change the GPL'ed source code in any way (or link with libraries who's license forbids non-GPL use).

In practice you will have to implement more functionality than a pretty box (although some people use that business model).

If you want to implement your application without GPL use your own code entirely or use tools/languages like f.ex. Python that explicitly licenses you to use it in this way. If you cannot do that, slap the code on a web site.

The people who steal the source will steal the source anyway; they are not bound by any mere license/patent/obfuscation/binary. Nerds will buy "open source" hardware because it is hackable. Everybody else do not give a toss about what goes on inside ... so, all in all, GPL is not that great a barrier. LinkSys apparently got away with making a couple of billion USD while still adhering to the GPL.

It is *much harder* to integrate product from several commercial vendors with one license per vendor than it is to satisfy the demands in the single GPL applicable to *all* the stuff that is used.

I.M.O. licensing is *the* main reason Linux makes advances in embedded systems and telecoms - not because it is technically better than everything else but simply because it is much less hassle than the alternatives.

Chances are pretty good that it's not "their" software.

Every distribution pulls from the same pool of kernel, utilities and applications. Whoever puts together a given distribution takes from that pool, deciding what to use and what to leave out on their own philosophy of what the distribution should be. Some will toss in some of their own programs that are traditionally copyrighted, but these are usually the installers. Some will also toss in things that aren't under GPL, be they outright commercial applications (like when there was a Wordperfect for Linux, so a distribution might have negotiated with the Wordperfect people to include it with some payment scheme), or simply programs that aren't as "free" as the GPL allows, such as the mailreader/newsreader Pine, which can be used by non-commercial entities but there are some limits on it's distribution.

Even if none of the distributions fit your project, you could always pull from the pool and put together your own distribution; chances are pretty good you don't need all that's in a full blown distribution yourself. This is precisely why there are so many Linux distributions, someone comes along, doesn't like the combinations of what's on the existing distributions, or doesn't like the philosophies of the existing distributions, so they go off and create yet another one.

But realistically, you should be able to find one that fits your needs. And if there are restrictions on some of the applications, then you leave them off.

You've not revealed what the product is. SO we have to guess whether this is an embedded product, or one that will have a full blown operating system for the user. Assuming the former, your needs will be different from the latter.

Michael

This is incorrect. You are free to sell linux. You still must comply with the GPL, and make the source available to your customers, and not prevent them from exercising their GPL rights to also sell linux.

You can change GPL code as much as you want. If you distribute the modified code or binaries built from modified source, you must then also distribute the modifications.

You are free to use GPL tools in a commercial setting. Just don't link them in to your application files.

ttyl,

--buddy

They need to abide by the GPL license if they *distribute* GPL software. They can do whatever they want if they do not distribute it. For example a company can modify GPL code for their own use, and keep the modifications secret, AIUI.

--

John Devereux

There is, sort of: RealBasic.

Windows, MacOs & Linux. But only for Intelx86 Linux.

If you take a Linux version and run your own program on it you can distribute the lot on a CD and you will generally be fine.

You do not have to give the source to your program and you can disallow copying of it - unless you incorporate code or libraries that carry a GPL license.

At for copying say Red Hat or Suse: these forls are not stupid and they copyright some small parts - like a logo, startup screen, or installer program.

The GPL implies that the copyrighted part must be non-integral and separate - so if you find the bits and remove them you can distribute the remainder - a right that the GPL gives you.

A buyer of your product could do the same - take out your program, and distribute the remaining bare linux version.

If you biul dsomething hardware-related it might be possible to put your software on the PIC part and use a control protocol to talk to it. The control part would run on Linux and might not be interesting for you from a copyright perspective - allowing teh buyer to adapt or extend the control part while you control the hardware side.

That could have the disadvantage that the market will develop better control software, and some independent vendor makes a compatible PIC based device with software written from the ground up - leaving you with nothing.

Depending on the required effort to do that it might be better to keep your control program copyrighted - which means link not to the GPL code, but to LGPL or BSD licenmsed libraries (most are).

But there is no VB for Linux - other tools are available though.

Thomas

It is not possible to distill the GPL down this much. I recommend that any interested parties read it. It isn't that hard to understand.

The force of the GPL comes from copyright law. If you don't abide by the GPL, then any rights which would otherwise be granted to you by it are not applicable. In that case the only law governing the distribution of the source code is copyright. There is nothing in copyright law which allows you to make unlimited copies of works and distribute them, so you are out of luck at that point.

There is no way that the GPL can force a violator to open his/her source code against his/her will. Thus the "viral" nature of the GPL is mostly a myth.

So if you create derivative works of GPL'd sources, and you wish to distribute them, you have to make the full source code available. If you don't do this, then you have no right to distribute the derivative works.

--Mac

You need to look at the General Public License, which is included with almost every software package - I don't think that there's anybody that you would have to pay royalties to.

To put this in perspective, about a year or so ago, I was in a tavern where they had one of those bar-top video games - put in a quarter, and it's got a touch-screen where you can play various games. I got to the bar early, and the game was off, so I turned it on. As the monitor warmed up, I saw the OS signing on and booting: BSD.

But I'd have no qualms at all about downloading a kernel, and write whatever drivers you want - even most distributions probably wouldn't mind, as long as you clearly identify your mods in the custom files, and release all of your sources on the same GPL license.

Cheers! Rich

The only "care" you'd need in that respect is "Don't f*ck up the code." All you have to do is prepend "modified by so-and-so, on such-and-such a date", and set off your mods with some comments. And, of course, keep all of the previous attributions as well. I've done this before, so I _know_, dang it! ;-)

Cheers! Rich