Legal definitions of homicide in the US and applicability to the accidental shooting on the 'Rust' movie set

Joe Gwinn wrote: ===============

We already know the live and dummy rounds used look identical to the average person even when they know there is an odd one in the mix. ( The New Mexico DA said she could not tell )

The lady armorer had a near impossible task to get it right * every * time. Making an understandable mistake is never negligence - at all.

The one class of event you left out was "death by misadventure" as seems the case here. A when a person or group engages in a hazardous activity - like race car or power boat racing and and one competitor is accidentally killed. Making a western movie with real guns is like that.

I previously compared it to working on a construction site - where fatal falls, electrocutions and being hit by heavy falling objects are daily events. Despite a host of precautions being in place.

The assistant director was not criminally negligent here either, for the same reasons as above.

Do you want to see a clear example of criminal negligence on a movie set ?

..... Phil

Phil Allison snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Not true. If she cannot discern the differences, she should not have been an armourer. Therefore making this mistake is negligence at the very least. Both on her part and on the part of whomever employed her specifically for that position without vetting her aptitude and knowledge and experience at doing that job.

If there was no locked cabinet on hand, then the production company has some liability.

Phil Allison snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

No, they are not. Or we would be seeing the news stories and we do not. We have OSHA here and strict training courses and provisos for construction site workers. I am OSHA 10 certified... twice in three years. Construction sites here is the US are pretty safe, and accidents happens rarely. Definitely NOT on your "daily" schedule.

Decaying Zombie Moron @decadence.org wrote: =======================================

( snip more vomitous, insane drivel )

IOW a troll.

It's called " mens rea " = Latin for "guilty mind" .

In criminal matters, it's the thought that counts. Attempted murder, though causing no harm will easily get you 15 years jail.

...... Phil

Phil Allison snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news:c161b1a5-f945-4bfc- snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

snip

Yeah you're a real good debater of your position, you f****ng absolute retard.

You are more stupid than John Doe troll. Simply because you should know better and not stoop, like you do so often, especially when refuted.

Good Job, Phil baby... NOT! Got the baby part right though. You are a childish f****ng putz.

Decaying Nut case LIAR : ===================

Roughly 150,000 injuries per year and over 1000 fatalities.

..... Phil

You would think that - and it has been argued in court exactly that way... but I know someone who was convicted and sentenced for attempted second degree murder. I read the documents submitted attempting to overthrow the conviction. It didn't fly in Florida. The crime met every aspect of the requirements for second degree murder (not exactly as you state them, but that varies between states) except the body wasn't dead when they loaded it in the trunk to dispose of it.

The example of auto accident might not suffice to reach second degree murder in Florida. There they require you to be committing a felony that could be expected to result in death without intent of causing a death. So if the manner of driving the auto in the deadly accident was not sufficient to be committing a felony that could be expected to result in death it would not be second degree murder, while it could be manslaughter.

I think that is very clearly not first degree murder since it was only a remote possibility someone would have been killed by the bullet. In fact I think it was very unlikely someone would have been killed. You give a definition of first degree murder above, but you don't say that is the definition in New Mexico where the killing took place.

Phil Allison snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news:0206dccd-cab8-4521- snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

It says one in ten workers get "injured". I'd be willing to bet that all injuries are included, such as finger cuts, knee scrapes, bumped heads, etc. Serious injury is likely a different statistic.

Decaying Nut case LIAR : ===================

FOAD you pile of lying human garbage

...... Phil

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id <sdhn7c$pkp$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id <sg3kr7$qt5$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Fri, 5 Nov 2021 23:48:35 -0000 (UTC) in message-id <sm4fsj$emp$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me.

EcdY5tdu74n8

And a thought of intentionally killing someone is not required for many crimes. An act that you know can kill someone, but callously disregarding that possibility still can be a felonious act, even resulting in a second degree murder conviction.

The fact that "mens rea" is considered in many aspects of the law does not mean you get off because you didn't "mean" to hurt anyone. Besides, a state of mind is very hard to prove.

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: =============================

An obvious lack of " mens rea " is a solid defense in most criminal cases. Don't work in civil ones though. ..... Phil

Rick C snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

The assistant director is the guy supposed to hand a gun to an actor AFTER the armourer hands it to the AD. That did not happen here AND when asked by the investigators, he said he 'could not remember how well he checked the gun'. WHAT? can't remember? I would remember every single second. Something is not right with that crew.

I cannot help but think that it is Trump related, because there are so many absolute idiots out there following the dope, and guess what... they hate Alec Baldwin.

Sure it can, in the US anyway. Common charge in fatal automobile accidents. Goes with reckless driving, the issue being lack of judgment by the driver in question.

Don't know if that DA knows guns at all well.

If I were the Armorer, I would have ensured that live and blank did not look alike, somehow. I've read that many blanks have a 0.125" diameter hole drilled in the case, so it can be directly verified that there is no powder inside. But I don't know what was in fact done. We shall soon find out, I'd venture.

True, and is the basic reason one uses multiple parallel measures, such that all must fail before a accident can happen.

It's also often done to have multiple people independently verifying critical details.

You are correct in that I didn't cover assumption of risk. In this case, the decision to undertake a risk was made by the person undertaking the risk, not by someone else. Whatever later happened, it is not murder.

There is a parallel in medicine. When one goes in for surgery, one signs a release form of some kind. What this form does is to say that you understand and accept the risk that the surgery won't go as planned, and you might die. One is also authorizing an activity that would be assault and battery, perhaps with intent to maim.

I saw this when I was having eye surgery for cataracts. They went through the whole crescendo, ending up with death. Really? For eye surgery? They do many millions of cataract surgeries per year, so maybe there is one lost soul per year. But I bet they actually died of something else, even if it was during surgery.

It's a good example for sure. But the Assistant Director could well be held liable under the same legal theory that resulted in some being "convicted of felony involuntary manslaughter and criminal trespassing" for the Midnight Rider accident.

The key is "willful negligence", which is usually the intentional skipping required safety measures to save money, thereby forcing the employees to incur a risk they never agreed to.

Joe Gwinn

Phil Allison snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

They do not "look identical" to ANY hollywood actor utilizing guns and gunplay in their role. They all know the differences.

Dummy, lookalike rounds in Hollywood and likely the film making world over, ALL have BBs in place of the powder, which can be heard distinctly upon shaking, AND the primers have all been struck and in some cases removed.

So there is no chance that a live, unstruck primer would ever "accidentally" end up not only on a set, but with the armourer and end up in a gun. It really is that simple. All those dummy rounds it the Mexican bandito's gun belts ALL have struck primers or even removed primers. They prefer struck. Because firing pin break eventually if it gets fired and doesn't smack a primer tail.

So it sounds like a live round was intentionally brought to a movie set full of gun scenes.

That is deliberate. The act of bringing something deadly to a movie set which is not allowed to begin with even on non-gun involved productions.

Whether or not it ending up in a "cold gun" was deliberate (by that same person who brought it or other) is a different question, because as was stated, there may have been some break time plinking going on opening a small window of it possibly being pure accident, but not much.

But it still sounds like a deliberate set of acts, because it should not have been within miles of the set, much less end up being inserted by someone into a gun that was *the gun* being used in the production by the lead actor whom was rehearsing at the time with the gun.

Anyone loading a gun of any type notices the "live" condition of each round as they load it by the same method, and that is seeing a fat, rounded, live primer in the ass of the bullet.

So it is not possible for a properly trained person to load a gun without looking at the primer on a center fire bullet as each is loaded up. And I do not mean properly trained movie set armourer, I mean ANY person with gun training does it JUST THAT WAY.

So ALL of the rounds being loaded should have shown a struck primer and made rattle sound when shook due to the B-Bs.

And ultimately if an idiot was the guy that loaded it and he didn't look, that is the very definition of negligence leading to a death with all of their policies and handling mechanisms in place.

So either a deliberate stunt by someone that ended tragically or an accident by the guy who loaded the gun for not looking at the rounds. But that accident has culpability for the loader if it was his job to ensure dead rounds.

DecayedBrainMatter has just come up with the MOST BIZARRE excuse for Baldwin: the prosecutors are after him because they love Trump and hate Baldwin!

Joe Gwinn Bullshitter wrote: ==========================

..... Phil

Flyguy snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

No idiot. I said it could have been a crew member you putz. I NEVER once said any f****ng thing about any prosecutor.

You are an illiterate dumbfuck.