Rust shooting may be Murder

True if it was intentionally placed in the dummy box.

But it could also be accidental mix-up.

In any case, security was loose. If the weapon cart was unlocked and unattended, should at least have security camera. They are certainly not short on camera there.

** The word " box" most likely refers to cardboard ammunition pack as supplied by the makers.

Be hard for a * live round* to be in there without deliberate, human intervention.

...... Phil

Phil Allison snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

"intervention" is the wrong word. "action" would be better. There are others, but intervention is not the right choice IMNSHO.

Yeah, many ways a live round could have got there, disgruntled employee, jilted ex-boyfriend, idiot at the dummy round factory, pizza delivery man, the f****ng fairy godmother.

It's why a set with some brains would maintain strict restricted access to that shit at all times, it greatly narrows down the possibilities. The armory management was literally out to lunch.

You people seem to be totally ignorant of what a good defense attorney does: introduce "reasonable doubt" into the equation.

Reasonable doubt for what they haven't even charged anyone with anything yet, and I don't think anyone seriously believes it was the armorer who put the live round in there intentionally.

Flyguy wrote Nothing as Usual : ==========================

** You completely miss the point:

Though it is normal to take reasonable measures against mishaps - *sabotage* is another matter entirely. A saboteur finds ways around any such measures and acts stealthily. Dead of night stuff.

...... Phil

Phil, you are as THICK HEADED as usual, and obviously don't understand the strategy of reasonable doubt. The defense DOES NOT have to prove that sabotage occurred - they merely plant the idea in the minds of the jury.

Tom S. takes being thick headed even further than Phil can manage. The only thing that is obvious to Tom S. is nature of the insult he wishes to express. Everything else is pure wishful thinking.

Where it will have to compete with the ideas planted by the prosecuting attorney. Tom S. does like to over-simplify - not that he has much choice.

Flyguy wrote CRAP as Usual : ==========================

** Fuck you - imbecile.

** YAAAWWWWWWWWMNNNNNNNNNNN ** You did not mention sabotage - at all.

Fucking crazy to blame anyone for not mind reading. FOAD - shit head.

...... Phil

It often seems all you are here for is to insult who you wish to. Once in awhile you post something of interest, but mostly you seem to want to argue and insult. That's why you jump on nearly every post by Flyguy and a few others of your favorite targets.

Actually he has summed up the main point, planting the seed of reasonable doubt can win a trial for the defense. As with every seed, it grows in a field of competition. Everyone knows that and it really doesn't need to be said. The point is the issue does not need to be proven. Just as in the OJ Simpson case, reasonable doubt can trump a fair amount of evidence. "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit!"

If anything they'd be looking at a gross negligence charge for the armorer, how the live round got there exactly doesn't matter too much in isolation fact is that it did and it was one of her top responsibilities in life to make sure live ammunition wasn't fired at people, whether a criminal put it there, it fell from the sky, it was the fairy godmother, whatever.

If there is evidence though that the armorer was duped in some way then I think that likely greatly reduces the culpability (and means there's a murderer on the loose to boot) but they have to provide some evidence of this as a mitigating factor, I don't think pure wild speculation helps her case very much intrinsically.

bitrex is FULL of nothing but BULLSHIT ==============================

** There is no such charge when death is the result. Gotta be murder or manslaughter.

Sabotage causing a foreseeable death = murder.

..... Phil

It would be difficult to respond to a Tom S., post without saying something that implied that he can't think very clearly, which does happen to be insulting.

There aren't all that many posts here which call for a positive and constructive reaction - people who get stuff right tend not to leave much room for improvement. People who get stuff wrong are something of a menace, and there is an obligation to point out errors.

Flyguy - Tom S - is essentially fly-posting this forum with pro-Trump propaganda. Cursitor Doom and John Doe try to popularise a broader range of right-wing nonsense.

It is one way of mounting a defense. There are others.

Tom S didn't phrase it in a way that made that obvious. As I mentioned, he does like to over-simplify.

Curious how expensive attorney's are so good at implanting reasonable doubts that even OJ Simpson escaped conviction.

snipped-for-privacy@ieee.org wrote: ================== >

** Think the all black jury was already itching to acquit - mostly for their own safety.

FYI:

Here is very controversial Dave Chappelle talking about four meetings with OJ, aka " juice ".

Watch it all the way !!!

..... Phil

In US law there is a type of homicide called "criminally negligent homicide" which is distinct from murder or voluntary manslaughter as a charge. They call it something different depending on the state in California it's called "involuntary manslaughter" which isn't a particularly descriptive name but that's what they call it.

But everywhere it's a less severe charge than either murder or voluntary manslaughter.

My point was that if it can be shown there was sabotage, then yes of course the saboteur if they can be found would be charged with the most severe crime possible that's not negligence that's malice aforethought.

But in the absence of any evidence of that they might try to charge the armorer with being criminally negligent.

BTW if what this purported saboteur did was "tamper with a commercial product" i.e. a box of dummy rounds and this resulted in someone's death that's also a Federal crime and they can be charged at the federal level, suggested punishment for that is imprisonment for any term of years up to and including life in a federal prison.

Phil Allison snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

We don't need a primer on the term.

Nope. That is called "wrongful death" or "negligent homicide". So you are the one who needs the primer.

The person introducing the live round is guilty of premeditated murder. The amrourer should be cited for improper management of what should have been locked up equipment. And could/would/should face a wrongful death suit or get a criminal conviction for negligent homicide.

If there were folks bitching about the conditions on the set, I would not put it past one of them. If there were ANY TrumpTards on the set, I would look directly at them first.

Donald John Trump should face negligent homicide charges both here in the US and in Ukraine.

Flyguy snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Armourer -- locked cabinet -- no lock -- negligent homicide. Open and shut.