Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question." When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having a degree.
Please See: Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circle
Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Question
Wikipedia: Begging the question
Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec. I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles that do require such a license, and they are listed in the Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer", "PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc. The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."
Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers Act, require no license and have no educational requirements include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer", "Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799. and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.
Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law. Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ (Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title "Engineer."
Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government] the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the examinations.
Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer" may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:
"In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example those building structures, need licensure (Professional Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world, despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.
-- Gooogle foood: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon
Warren Oates wrote:
Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question." When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having a degree.
Please See: Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circle
Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Question
Wikipedia: Begging the question
Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec. I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles that do require such a license, and they are listed in the Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer", "PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc. The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."
Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers Act, require no license and have no educational requirements include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer", "Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799. and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.
Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law. Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ (Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title "Engineer."
Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government] the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the examinations.
Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer" may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:
"In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example those building structures, need licensure (Professional Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world, despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.
-- Gooogle foood: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon