Ferric Chloride?

Radio Shack/The Source still sells some.

There are better ways to get PCBs these days. You'll find they don't stock vacuum tubes either.

You aren't doing this for *cost* reasons, are you?

't-get-solder-mask+Alberta.Printed.Circuit+ident

Alternatively.. Check out.. Air Regenerated Acid Cupric Chloride Etching

For Ferric Chloride: Try looking for a local MG chemicals distributor

I know one in BC:

D from BC British Columbia Canada.

We have two "The Source" and neither stock it.The franchise managers say they are getting out of the electronic components etc. once there inventory is depleted.

Well yes the CNC mill I used in school would be ideal,but a little pricey for me.

A board fab house wouldnt be cost effective for my quantities.They also take to long. I usually find out some modifications are nescessary after my first board is constructed and tested,another reason why a FAB house isnt worth it.

Really the ones here have some pretty antiquated components.

What city are you in?

Gaaaah, no way.

Olimex charges like 30$ for a single double sided board.

Hey, if you think that way no one would ever fab a board. I'm a "pro" (that's what it says on my paycheck, but I'm really a goofball) I work with pros. There's still the occasional mod wire that pops up. What are you gonna do about it? That's life.

Radio Shack used to source all kinds of weird stuff, I used to buy reel to reel tape from them. Tubes too.

Jameco.

ExpressPCB is not too bad especially if you do not mind the board size being their "loss-leader" and getting three at a whack. They also ahve free schematic and layout software that you use for making and ordering boards. Sierra Proto Express in Sunnyvale does not have a minimum that i know of, and they have an excellent turn-around time at a good price; (408)

523-9922 Amit Bahl.

What's wrong with a CNC mill? My experience with people who dislike them is they don't take the time to learn to operate it correctly. They have there limitations capability wise, but then so does a fad house. I know a CNC mill no matter what you spend couldn't compete isolation wise, layers and trace width with any chemical process but you can't beat them for creating proto boards quickly with no mess. They're also pretty cool to watch.:)

Just did a 10W flyback (2.4"x3") cost for etchant used, paper, toner PCB Approx.2 bucks, time not including layout about an hour. I guess I'm already 28 bucks and three plus days ahead.

I don't understand why people seem to think it's always necessary to use a PCB house. I've been on several interviews were the company does all there own boards. They have there own etchant rooms, pick and place and reflow soldering all in house. I'm not knocking PCB houses if you regularly do multi layer boards or several thousand units per run yes a PCB house is the place to go. The cost of the equipment is coming down making it more attractive to do it all in house, hell one company even made its own enclosures plastic injection moulding. My opinion is the more you can do yourself the better, judging by the amount of companies I've seen who do everything in house I'm not alone in that regard.

Noisy, slow, dusty, expensive and did I mention noisy.

I'd rather spend my time doing something other than babysitting an infernal noisemaker. It's not like I don't have other things to do.

Robert

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I saw one of those, IIRC, at Silicon Systems, when they were in Grass Valley.

They housed theirs in an old teletype noise box ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

The main noise comes from the vacuum attachment, but it sounds like you weren't using one. But it's not what I would consider deafening, maybe try a new one. You don't have to sit there and babysit it "set it and forget it". Maybe whoever told you to do that wanted to get you out of their hair. They are slower though.

Like all things it depends on what you're willing to spend.

To each his own.

That sounds like it would help. We used the parking lot on a good day.

Given the limitations in the results and the cost of prototype boards they strike me as a solution whose time has passed. There is a certain fascination in watching the circuit appear in bits out of the process though.

Robert

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I would, we did set it outside in clement weather and that helped at the cost of annoying the neighbours. Mad for a noisy lab even then.

Yes and no. It did have to be checked periodically and mill bits replaced if they broke and make sure that the CU was still being milled, Dukk bits ride up in the CU rather than removing it. Losing four hours because the mill failed near the beginning is less than attractive.

That seems unlikely, I was in charge ;) Mostly others had need of it at the time so they had to keep an eye on it.

And that's before the cleanup other post milling work you need to do.

And in what currency. They strike me as a tool for universities. "Grad students are free".

Robert

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Are you talking about a CNC to mill the traces or just drill the vias?

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zero, and remove the last word.

Milling the traces. Via's get drilled as well of course.

Robert

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[cough] We had one when I was in grad school... it was used for the microwave labs where we built such uninspiring things as coupled stripline filters and Wilkinson power dividers. I occasionally advocated trying out something a little more intersting like a microwave oscillator or at least amplifier (or maybe a dual-mode filter if you want to stick with passive designs... or at least a wideband Wilkinson!?), but due to a lack of tools and practical RF design/construction experience it never really happened.

My last year in grad school the motor burned out on the thing; I don't know if they bothered to replace it. All the undergraduates doing various digital logic boards were already using Advanced Circuits or -- if they had even more time and fewer spare dollars -- the dirt-cheap overseas companies.

Interesting story: The one time that anyone in the department could recall a student entering the "student" power amplifier design contest at IMS (International Microwave Syposium -- the "big show" for those doing microwave anything), said student was actually already working as a full time engineer at a well-known company that designs amplifier MMICs and other RF ICs and had access to a very nice set of equipment for prototyping and testing.

He still didn't come in particularly high on the list. :-)

I thought about doing the same thing myself (in our department, I was one of a long list of grad. students who went off and found a Real Job after finishing their coursework but prior to getting around to finishing their thesis...), but I never found/made the time. I did get as far as talking to Steve Cripps (judge and of course well-known uwave PA designer... not to mention nice guy...) and he mentioned that -- at the time -- all of the winning designs were still significantly less power efficient than off-the-shelf commercial offerings. Makes you wonder about the state of higher education a bit!

---Joel

For RF designs we still use ours when we need relatively simple boards in a hurry. It's not ideal -- our machine/plating process only supports 2 layers, so if you want a ground plane you're stuck using jumper wires. I also have a suspicion that it isn't even necessarily that cost effective relative to, say, John Larkin or Wes Hayward's "ugly construction" techniques, but we still find it useful on occasion.

For digital designs I don't think there's much point anymore, at least if you can afford to wait about a week: Even Advanced Circuits will get you 3 2-layer boards for $99 in a week, and you get 15 mil holes, 6 mil traces, excellent soldermask and silkscreening -- far better than what cut boards can offer.

If you can afford the sometimes-luxury of time...

Thanks for sharing your advice and experiences everyone.

D from BC

I found a place ACTIVE TECH from your link, should be here in three days with some other stuff.

Thank you