Evaluating if a salary is fair for a EE position

I would feel bad interviewing with other companies if my goal was to just figure out how much they would offer me. I mean doesn't that just seem tacky? My end goal is to get my current employer to pay me what I'm worth.

When raises come around, I'm thinking about going into the VP's office (I believe the VP makes most of the decisions regarding salary changes, though it's possible that I'm mistaken) with the various sources of information that I mentioned earlier. Specifically, I was thinking that I'd come in with a report from my university that says that we should expect to get about $58K average coming out of my school and working in the area. Then I'd also have the report that shows that if you're making $58K in that area you should be making about $68K in Boston. Then I'd show them the report that shows that the average salary for an "electrical engineer I" (which I think understates my responsibilities at my company) is $63K in the area.

Or maybe that would also be tacky.

-Michael

I advise that you treat your employment as a business transaction. If the business situation changes and they no longer need you or they find someone who is better and cheaper (including the costs involved with employee turnover), they will throw you away like a used kleenex with no concern about "seeming tacky." Treat them the same way. Be open about your relationship being pure business. Don't fall for the trap of giving them loyalty when they have no loyalty to you. If they really wanted you to not interview with other companies, they would have signed a long-term contract with you, offered stock options, etc.

(There are employers who show more comittment to the worker, amd they deserve loyalty in return, but it doesn't sound like you are working for one of those.)

That being said, do *not* let anyone -- even your closest buddy -- know that you interviewed elsewhere. One goal of many corporations is to identify unhappy employees and terminate them. When you hear a company that encourages you to take complaints to human resources, that's what they are doing. It is the job of human resources to do anything they can, up to but not including changing the behavior of your boss, paying you more, etc., to make it so that no unhappy employees work there. They can do this by counseling you so that you accept the way you are treated, or they can do this by replacing you with someone who accepts the way they are treated.

If you do this, make sure you are early enough. Hitting him up three weeks before your review when the salary decisions were made seven weeks earlier is unlikely to turn out well.

Also, be prepared to be terminated for daring to ask for more money. Some VPs can get quite emotional and childish about such things.

Lastly, keep it calm, professional, and focused on what your value to them is. Talk about what you have done for them, not what your needs are.

No, just risky.

Don't bypass your "line of organization" unless you are invited to do it. VERY tacky and you are likely to cut your throat.

Even though your immediate boss isn't the one who can grant a raise, he/she IS the one, who should be able to help you quantify your performance. Your boss should agree or disagree with you and discuss it in depth with you. If he/she agrees you deserve a raise, he/she is the one who should argue the case for you, in the organizations correct method.

Were I you, I'd haul the boss out for coffee and just ask "how do I go about asking for a raise?" Should flow like water, or something, downhill from there.

I was once surprised at how many of my EE friends and business acquaintances had worked for the same companies. Their view was that, within a company, they would reach a wage plateau they couldn't break through, so they would move to company B with a worthwhile wage increase. They would eventually recycle back to the first company, which was happy to give them much more money than when they left.

This won't work if you bypass your boss; it's usually a sure path to becoming unwelcome. But if your boss is a useless jerk who is in a job beyond his/her level of competence, of which there are many, more drastic, hazardous steps may be required.

If they are not currently close enough to that (evidently not) the most practical method is to actually leave for a higher paying job, and then (if you really want to) let them hire you back a few years later at a higher salary yet - if you just stay with the same company for the same number of years, you will not get the rate you would by leaving and returning - loyalty is not rewarded. Just don't go around burning bridges as you go.

If you go hunting and get a solid offer of a different job, you could give your present employer the opportunity to match it. If they opt to, your future raise prospects might be dim for a while, or forever - and you might also get on the short-list for layoffs...better to actually go, if the company you've interviewed with meets your standards - and you should have some.

You should be prepared to leave in either case, because that may well be the only option you actually have. And it's always possible that your next employer will be better in many ways - at least now you have the experience of this job to recognize that you need to interview the company as much as they need to interview you.

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Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Not all businesses operate that way, Guy -- although it certainly behooves everyone to observe their employer and try to figure out when it is or isn't the case. I know of a company where pretty much every employee stuck around as long as their finances would allow during a post-9/11 slowdown that no longer allowed the company to meet 100% of their payroll (i.e., they paid what they could when they could, but some paychecks were missed). When business rebounded a few years later, the company repaid anything they hadn't been able to hand out previously as well as considerable extra bonuses, including permanent increases in the company's contributions to the employees' 401k plans.

I would grant you that this sort of company is the exception rather than the rule these days, and in general I think your advice is useful.

---Joel

I agree on all but dealing with HR. If there is an organization that is not in tune with a company, it is HR. Most HR employees barely know what the company does. Rather, they are very generic. Handling insurance benefits for a software outfit is no different than handling insurance benefits for a R&D outfit.

One thing I never did is get an offer then hold up the company I was working for to match it. If I liked the offer, I took it.

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Actually, their initial offer was something like $5K below what we settled upon. I eventually told them that there was no way in hell that I was going to accept an offer that was below average coming out of my department, so they offered me I think $250 above the average wage.

-Michael

That type language and thought process usually don't result in a satisfactory outcome, given that there are so many statements that could have been used which convey the same thought without being abrasive.

My experience with HR (inHuman Resources) was not good. The gal that sat in that position was a consumate gossip with other HR folks in town. They would trade stories which people were interviewing during lunch meetings. She would come back and tell the boss who was out interviewing. Of course, I would get wind of who was interviewing from my contacts in town.

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To be clear, I did not use that exact language. Amazingly, I am not an idiot. OK, well I probably am - but I still was much more political than that. I essentially told them that being at the top of my class, I felt it unreasonable that I would be getting a salary substantially below the *average* of my class. The CFO felt I was being unreasonable and wouldn't budge a penny, and so I essentially told them no - and then the VP called and offered me just barely above the average and I accepted the offer.

-Michael

Yup - go looking for a new company if you want better pay. That scenario does not have a ring of good omen to it.

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Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

I have a friend who has been sort of bouncing around jobs like that since he graduated. He started out at $55K or so, and is now getting I think about $150K, about 6 or so years after he graduated. I think he's had 3 or 4 jobs since then, with almost all of his salary gain happening in the jumps from one job to another. Part of me is tempted to do that - but I'd really like to find a way to convince my company that I'm actually worth something.

I know of at least one person at my company who did just that - and they ended up actually beating the offer. He's still here, and that was a few years ago.

I am fully prepared. If I'm not up to a reasonable salary in a month I'm going to make plans to go elsewhere, though I'll probably stay on till the end of May just so that I will have worked here a year (as I think it'll look better on a resume that I didn't quit super early). I have enough money saved up to live comfortably for a couple years, so finding a new job quickly is not a worry. I'm also good at what I do (or perhaps dumb/cocky enough just to think I am) so I don't think I'll have trouble getting another job.

-Michael

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It's a very small company - I think if I talked to my supervisor he'd just tell me to talk to the VP.

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I did just have a performance review, and I was told that I had completely outperformed their expectations and that the higher-ups expected me to become one of the company's "stars", whatever that means. Perhaps they tell everybody that, I have no idea.

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My boss is a good guy, I just don't think he has any control over my salary. I may discuss it with him ahead of time. Only problem is that I know that anything I tell him he'll then tell the VP, so then the VP will be prepared for me which is probably not a good thing.

-Michael

Which is, unfortunately, the way it usually works.

No school loans/car loans, etc.?? If you're fully in positive cash flow land that soon after college, you're doing well. If you've got (say) $60K of loans and $20K to live off of, not nearly so good. When you get to the point that you can live off of the income from your investments without touching the principal, you can relax, perhaps.

Generally much harder to get a job as an unemployed person than as a graduating student or employed person. There's a perception of "what hidden baggage is there that made you quit", or were you "quietly fired" or what?

Far better to move from job to job if you'll be moving about.

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Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

The top level people have demonstrated time and time again that all I am is one EE unit to them. I'm amazed they even know my name. They have zero loyalty to me. It's different with my supervisor and my fellow employees, but the people actually in control just care about the bottom line.

The only thing I've really complained about is my salary. If they want to fire me instead of giving me a better salary that is fine, and I just wish they'd do it sooner rather than later.

I had been planning on giving them the benefit of the doubt - wait to see what raise they give me before telling them what I should be getting. Who knows - maybe they'll even give me more than I'm looking for (haha yeah right).

I'd be OK with that. If they aren't going to pay me more than I'll be leaving anyways. That way they're the bad guy, not me, in the eyes of the other employees.

I guess that makes sense. My plan had been to focus on what I felt was normal for somebody with my skills to be getting. It's kinda hard to quantify any of this though.

I'm young and have no commitments - risks don't scare me. The prospect of looking back in 10 years and wondering what the hell I was thinking to be working for pennies scares me.

-Michael

No debt whatsoever. I am living off of about $1K/month (I live very cheaply - almost all of that is my rent), and have enough saved up to live that way for a couple years with no income.

Makes perfect sense. In the ideal scenario, they'll give me what I want. In the next best scenario, they won't, and then I'll find a new job and give them a month or two notice. I've even thought about taking some time off to do other stuff - like explore the world. Dunno. I'm not worried about it though.

-Michael

Explore the world..?? Wouldn't it be better to gamble with your money and try to become a successful entrepreneur..?

Tell your boss. "Sorry, I have to quit. I can make more money selling these things"

:P

D from BC British Columbia Canada.

Well, if you keep living that way, you'd only need about 250,000 put away, assuming a conservative 5% return, to make work "optional". Ignoring taxes, etc - better shoot for 300,000.

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Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Hi Michael,

herewith my $0.02:

- most businesses are essentially as Guy (and yourself) have outlined. You are indeed one EE unit. However your direct supervisors will (hopefully) know what category of EE unit you fall into, ranging from the anti-worker (everything they do must be re-done. dont laugh, I have worked with several people who did anti-work), thru to the plodder (9-5, no enthusiasm or initiative) thru to the highest level, showing initiative, flair, solving problems etc.

- things you dont ask for are generally things you dont get.

- everything is negotiable

- be prepared for the downside in any negotiation (which usually involves leaving the building within 10 minutes)

my advice would be to estimate your value to the company. what average salaries are is really irrelevant, like all statistics - useful applied to populations, useless applied to individuals. you are in a good position to figure out how much value you add to the company, and from that deduce what you are worth. you ought to earn the company 5-10x your salary.

this tends to be one of the reasons why salespeople get paid more than engineers - its very easy to measure the value they "add" to the company, by looking at how much they sell. of course if the products dont work well, even the best salesmen have trouble, which is why engineers ought to be paid more - a bad engineer can destroy a company by, say, designing in a total-recall/redesign problem.

(salesmen are also used to putting themselves forward, and negotiating deals, which is also why they tend to be paid more than engineers, many of whom are happiest when engineering, and consider salary an added benefit).

once you have worked out what you think you are worth, find a couple of places you would like to work, and interview there. Negotiate HARD, because they cannot fire you.

then think about where you would like to work most. if it is at your company, go back with an ultimatum - $X or goodbye. be prepared to walk. If it turns out to be at one of the places you interviewed with, quit & go work there.

I wached a guy once bullshit about a job offer, while trying to negotiate becoming VP Eng and a $140k salary. he said the other offer paid that much, and the CEO said "thats too good an offer to turn down Dave, its been great working with you". He was a very unhappy chap, and literally left the building within 5 minutes of the meeting (with the CEO standing beside him as he cleared out his desk).

at a company I once worked for, the R&D mgr & 2 top engineers tried to negotiate a sweet deal - they set up their own company, and wanted to contract back the R&R mgmt. nice idea, but they resigned first, and the GM had a temper tantrum, again throwing them out of the building.

this was 9 months after one of the top engineers was head-hunted by another company. they kept offering him more money (he was on NZ$56k) and he kepty declining, until it got to $120k. he went to the R&D mgr and said "sorry, I have to take this job". As he was the brains of the outfit, the R&D mgr contacted head office, saying "we cant lose this guy". They matched the salary offer, on the spot. and pumped up the R&D mgr and the other top engineer salaries at the same time.

a few days later, these guys got really pissed off. same desk, same tasks, twice the pay - clearly the company had been significantly underpaying them. so they took the extra money for the best part of a year, paying off their mortgages, then set up their own company. which is now large and very successful (very smart guys).

hence "if you dont ask you dont get". I learned this lesson as a fresh EE graduate (although with 3 years as a tech beforehand), I had been there about 6 months when these guys all left. it actually worked brilliantly for my career, as the three less-senior (6yrs + 1.5yrs +

6months) got left with all the work. we swum (although swallowed a fair bit of water at the start, to torture the analogy further)

Cheers Terry