EnergyStar plugpacks

** What Rod Elliot wrote above is **completely correct** - backed up by actual measurements and published data you can find in the supplied links.

Time the posturing pommy Wanker learned to bloody read !!!!

** Shame how external, transformer based supplies, range from 1 watt up to 100 watts or more.

** Shame how this makes them economical to produce and have far better voltage regulation than otherwise.
** There is NO problem.

The whole idea of banning them is utterly STUPID !!.

** Then the core size must be increased quite dramatically to achieve the same VAs and regulation factors.

Then the core and copper losses increase again.

** Rod's comment was about " presently available " external transformer based supplies - virtually all of which are E-core types.

Such designs become inefficient unless operated near the core's saturation limit.

The new rules require external PSUs to be unusually efficient, as well as have very low off load power loss.

Taken together ( which Win has stupidly failed to do) this means that E- cores are basically ruled out of the game.

Even the majority of *presently available* SMPS are ruled out of the game !!!

Only new generation SMPS ( which basically cease to switch with no load) will pass.

As I have noted here already - it is possible that in some VA ratings ( between say 7VA and 50 VA ) an R-Core design would make the grade PLUS be able to meet Class 2 insulation requirements - which is also essential.

None on the horizon, anywhere I can see.

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison
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I doubt they'll have any difficulty making such "new generation" controllers -- the switcher controllers aimed at low-voltage regulation have had such features for years now, since of course people do care a lot about battery life.

A lot of consumer electronics already comes with switchers, which suggests to me that we're already pretty close to the tipping point where switchers are about as cheap to build when everything (shipping weight, only needing one model for worldwide input voltages, etc.) is taken into consideration.

It may be bone-headed legislation, but as I said before, it's at least trying to mandate something that's technologically quite feasible without extraordinary price increases, which is a lot better than what, e.g., automobile standards are sometimes set at.

When it comes to this sort of legislation, I think the biggest real problem with compact fluorescent and switching wall warts is reliability and control of failure modes -- something the legislation fails to address, it would appear.

Reply to
Joel Kolstad

You are the one who should learn to read. I plainly stated and backed up with theory and measurements that the reason Rod observed such bad performance is because the transformer manufacturers have taken liberties with their small versions. (Rod measured merely these poor "standard" designs, without critically analyzing them. You took his word as gospel.)

First, they make them less efficient than their larger ones, and as we observed in threads past, this is rather grossly apparent from observing the low copper-filling factor on the bobbins. Second, to save money they avoided using very simple techniques available for small low-power transformers, such as more turns, to dramatically lower quiescent primary current.

The cost of making the changes I see necessary is not zero, but it's quite small, perhaps 20% at most. But consider, if a rule is passed mandating the changes, all the manufacturers will be in the same place, and can make the changes without suffering any disadvantage. (That's the very useful role that a government and a regulator can play that industry can't do, or has a hard time doing, unless a strong standards body gets involved, for example.)

It's my belief the regulators consulted first with several manufacturers to determine the feasibility before proceeding. Or perhaps they read the relevant threads here on s.e.d. :-)

Reply to
Winfield

WRONG.

Reply to
Winfield

"Joel Kolstad = Fucking Idiot "

** You need to take reading lessons too.

Notice - my comment above is written in the present tense.

** You are a PITA SNIPPING IDIOT !!

My comment above was clearly about R- core transformers.

LEARN to READ !!!!!!!!!

DO NOT SNIP OUT THE CONTEXT !!!

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

"Winfield"

** So Win knows *f*ck* all about this topic as well.

Pseudo academic pommy jerk off.

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

For the benefit of us yanks, what does pommy mean?

Reply to
xyzzy

Snipped to highlight a point....

I like the idea of SMPS which stop switching, and resume with output load etc. - many idling SMPS make very strong signals at RF to 50+ MHz.

For a small signal radio listener to survive many of these supplies must be turned off completely as they make terrible noise at HF and above.

Some make a broadband white noise and others a gurgling, swishing noise which wanders all over the spectrum - worst offenders here are DVB-T receivers and (especially) SAMSUNG colour televisions.

I turn all my SMPS and then I can hear those of neighbours...I hate the stinking things !

Reply to
Fun Tyme

"xyzzy"

** Got any idea what Google is good for ?

Fuckwit .

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

"Fun Tyme"

** Must be a ham radio freak.

But I agree that SMPS are a major cause of EMI.

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

"Eeysore"

** God knows what it is.

It don't say.

Nor is there proof of class 2 compliance.

Anyone can use the double square symbol, at whim.

....... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

I was confused by what I find on the web. Apparently "pommy" is an endearing term for Brits. But also I find:

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which says that the term "f****it" is mainly used by British Wankers, and I didn't think you were a British Wanker. So, I thought you were using "pommy" in another sense, and I'd better ask you about it.

Reply to
xyzzy

Except, that isn't likely to happen; you'll just end up with SMPS wall-warts instead of transformer/rectifier/regulator wall-warts.

Reply to
Nobody

British.

"Pom" is an Australian colloquial term for a Briton, so "pommy" is the adjective form.

Also: "whingeing pom". Typically a Briton who is visiting Australia or has recently moved there, and has trouble adjusting to the heat, the venomous wildlife, etc. Or just Britons generally, depending upon the speaker's perception of them.

Reply to
Nobody

Let's assume a billion of these transformers with a $.1 cost increase. That's $100m the consumers will have to spend.

But all those transformers will consume about one gigawatt less, that's the equivalent of a normal power plant.

So, essentially, you get 1GW of power for $100m. That's pretty good, plus this "virtual power plant" doesn't consume any primary energy nor has it emissions. So it really does make sense to improve the efficiency of small applicances from an economical standpoint alone. No pants peeing greenie weenie arguing required here.

The same argument could be made from the consumer's point of view: The new wall wart consumes 1W less, which (assumed it's on 24/7) will save about 1.7 EUR/year (in Germany). Such amounts of money are too small to make any appreciable difference to the consumer, so we can't rely on the market forces having any effect. Government intervention is the right thing to do here.

robert

Reply to
Robert Latest

** Completely WRONG.

Iron core transformers in external PSUs are about to * disappear * - you ASS.

The REAL cost increase to the public may well be horrendous.

formatting link

The increased electrocution risk alone is TOTALLY unacceptable.

** Anything can be "proved" with totally ASININE false logic like yours.
** It is all utter bollocks.

...... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

On a sunny day (Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:57:44 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill wrote in :

Winfield you are so rigth! It is very possible to make small transformers with < .5W loss if good iron quality is used, and sufficient turns.... We had some of those made locally already many years ago (30? ;-)), did not even get a bit warm. Iron quality is _very_ important (and sufficient iron) to get a low loss. There are several sorts of iron to choose from IIRC (my first job was in a transformer / power supply company). No problem. Actually a good idea, as most of these little buggers get way too hot.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Agreed. I think most of the damn wall warts we see around here are recycled ship hulls, not grain oriented silicon steel. Sloppy 2 X 2 stacking of the core doesn't exactly improve performance - or failing to insulate the through- lamination hardware, or inter winding electrostatic shielding.

I worked for a custom linear supply manufacturer. We'd turn out some transformers for clients - they were amazed that the same size transformer that they were buying in bulk from overseas could be replaced with something that ran so much cooler and had better regulation.

One of our clients (Indian dude) asked for, and got, the winding schedule (design) of a transformer we were making for his prototype controllers. When he needed a lot of them, he passed the design to a manufacturer in Indonesia and got back a truckload of junk that ran hot and wouldn't meet his spec..

I loved it - slick guy figured he'd pull a fast one on us and shot his foot in the process. He was committed to these little relay socket controllers - the heat of the transformers wouldn't dissipate enough to meet the environmental specs he was quoting. The styrene covers would melt.

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Reply to
default

Playing around with the number of turns like that means a bigger winding window to accommodate both primary and secondary, so the core will have to be exponentially larger, just that much more material to increase the cost. If you reduce the wire gauge, allowing higher than the established industry standard current density in the wire, then you trade off the low no-load quiescent power consumption for higher dissipation and less than optimum efficiency at rated load, this adds even more to the cost of ownership, and depending on the usage cycle profile may defeat the intended purpose of the new regulations and waste energy. Your ideas are in keeping with the simple-mindedness of the entire philosophy of proposing all encompassing rules and regulations, a historically massive failure and legacy of parasitic bureaucracy that should be abandoned.

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

Indeed.. this is the NUMBER ONE problem. I specified a better material for a thermocouple instrument design (where heat dissipation affects the accuracy of the cold-junction compensator) and the transformer surface temperature dropped from "noticably warm" to "is it on?" with exactly the same size and (IIRC) the same windings. If nobody forces them to they'll use the cheaper material, save 10 cents or whatever, and each unit will waste an extra 10 cents a month of electricity.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

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Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

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