Controls Block Diagrams

Hey Wescott, you out there?

Are there any generally accepted practices for showing gains in feedback and polarities at summing junctions for a simple control loop?

I like to see a positive gain in the feedback branch feeding a negative (subtraction) input to the comparator. Mathematically, it doesn't matter if the signs arethe other way around. But it makes visualizing open loop gains and generally understanding what's going on a bit simpler.

What do the pros do?

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Error: Keyboard not attached.  Press F1 to continue.
Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Loading thread data ...

Who??

Quite a few of them. Which do you want to use?

In general you show a summing junction with a circle. This circle is often decorated with one thing or another (older texts cross the circle diagonally, dividing it into four parts -- which is confusing, because in a control block diagram that means addition, while in a RF block diagram it means mixing).

At any rate, you decorate the signals coming into the circle with their sign in the summation, by putting a little '+' or '-' by the signal (or, if you quarter the circle, by putting a '+' or '-' in the appropriate circle quarter).

Here's an article on the subject:

formatting link

Note that the block diagram method that I present is somewhat different from what is commonly seen -- but it makes things explicit that have been used in ad-hoc ways elsewhere, and is (in my opinion, of course), superior to what's normally used.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Many thanks for the helpful info from a lurker.

Reply to
John S

That is a serious amount of work you put into that webpage. About all that is missing is instructions on Mason's rule.

It isn't as pretty, but signal flow graphs work fine instead of block diagrams. I find they are easier to do with Inkscape. You draw a vector and plop down a label. Gain is a number, integrator is 1/s, etc. And the form is more of a standard for design, but it is not acceptable to the style police for publication. [Publication is where accurate technical diagrams become pretty but full of errors.]

Reply to
miso

It may not surprise you to know that there isn't uniformity across platforms in the process control business. The couple of systems that I've worked a lot with have the + signal to the summer as the target, and the - as the measured value. The control block (PID or whatever) has a selector that can be for 'direct' or 'reverse' action. For a stable system with the output looped back to the measurements, the setting has to be reverse. Control gain is always positive.

HTH

Reply to
Bruce Varley

I like your use of the Sigma for summation, Pi for product, etc. You didn't answer my question directly, but your examples have given me a hint.

Most (all?) of your feedback summing junctions use a minus (-) input for the feedback signal. See your Figure 12 on the above page. That would make your H(z) transfer function 'positive'. That's the way I've seen most controls people do things.

I just got into an argument with someone who wanted to change an existing specification, defined as described above, to show a negative feedback function gain (H(z)) to a positive summing junction input. I said 1) that's the way its usually done and 2) why revise an existing document?

Its a reactive load feedback signal for generator voltage regulation, if anyone needs to know.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep your gnosis out of my business!
Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

Signal flow graphs are superior for linear, time-invariant systems, but real-world systems often boil down to things that are easier to express in a block.

And I left out Mason's rule on purpose -- the page is for beginners, and I didn't want to scare them off. Besides -- by the time I get to the level of complexity where I'm thinking of applying Mason's rule, I've long since put the linearized system description into a state-space representation, and solved that. I've been out of school for over 20 years now, and I think I've used Mason's rule for pay twice in all that time.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

If you have a physical feedback signal that's negative polarity then that representation makes sense -- you do like to be able to equate measurable nodes with signals on the diagram. If that's what's motivating the guy, well, it's probably going to enhance the overall clarity of the system design, and it might even be something that I'd do.

If that's _not_ what reflects reality, then I'm on your side.

(Obvious examples of the negative polarity feedback are cases where you're just plain reading a quantity with a negating amplifier. Less obvious ones are times where, for instance, you're measuring the period of a motor rotation and controlling it's drive -- in that case your linearized model needs to have a sign change either in the motor (because you're controlling period, and positive drive increments leads to negative period increments) or in the feedback (because you're controlling speed, and positive speed increments lead to negative period increments).

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

I had a class from Sam Mason, taught from Mason & Zimmerman, "Electronic Circuits, Signals, and Systems".

And a class taught by Jim Melcher, with textbook, Zimmerman & Mason, "Electronic Circuit Theory".

Both very nice guys, and both died young, Mason from a cerebral hemorrhage and Melcher from colon cancer :-(

But I never knew of anything called Mason's rule... just flow-graph circuit analysis... which I never much cared for as an analysis tool. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

BlockDiagrams.html

Mason's rule gives a fixed algorithm for computing a transfer function from a flow graph or block diagram, given that you know the transfer functions of each of the legs or blocks.

It's one of those things that's superbly handy in an academic setting, but doesn't seem to have much application in real life.

(At least not for me -- by the time I get a control system block diagram that's complicated enough for Mason's rule it's covering enough of the system that it has significant nonlinearities, and linear analysis has been tossed out the window.)

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

Yup, Lots of academics non-realities. I had several graduate-level courses in non-linear control theory... all that Lyapunov fun stuff ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

OK, the power station fraternity. They tend to be locked into their own paradigm, which hails from many years ago. Easier to just go with what they want?

Reply to
Bruce Varley

I've used signal flow graphs for filter design. I don't run into the need for Mason's rule often, but it is good to know.

Reply to
miso

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.