Brain teaser: Would 300 Hz TV solve the European - US compatibility problem?

On a sunny day (Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:57:45 -0700) it happened John Larkin wrote in :

My reply to Joerg was pointing in an other direction. He always has problems (especially with his digital TV), but also with his circuits, and never comes with solutions. He is like a hole where you can dump (suggest) solutions into, but we never see the ones adopted, at most 'I did it with discrete'. That does make for a fascinating conversation source, allows everybody to show how smart they are, but the problems will persist. So, as they persist anyways, and no solution will emerge, what is the best reply? Well, the best reply for Joerg is the one where the problems keep getting worse. So, the unsolvable, well, hope I got that across.

As to the US... well, Nigeria let's see, have not done that math for a while: From the national debt clock:

The estimated population of the United States is 306,971,973 so each citizen's share of this debt is $38,495.03.

But that includes children and babies, the not working population. So 40 k$ debt for each living soul. How many working adults?

152,193,214 So say about half the population. That gives a debt to pay of for each of them of 80 k$ At 10 % interest that makes 8 k$ a year interest.

The average wages:

maybe around 35 k$

Well, you are of the hook it seems, it is still possible to pay the interest NOW. But from:

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $3.87 billion per day since September 28, 2007!

So, time will push it into the realm where the interest to be payed will become bigger then the national product, if it is not already. You are basically selling out to the Japanese, Chinese, UK, some Arab countries. They now own your property, the land you live on. Nigeria. Soon you will have to ask your local warlord^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hsenator how to cope with all this.

And I do not think Europe is running out of people, there are more fugitives boating towards here then there are 'brains' boating towards the US.

You are the idiot talking about dropping or repeating frames, you dopey fucktard.

Jperg lives in a rural area. All he needs is a satellite dish.

but

His stuff is often very cost-sensitive. And he hates LDOs. You can't generalize about America from that.

reply?

Je sounds pretty successful to me.

What do you do?

Many European countries have higher per-capita debt. Japan is much higher. But we are breeding, and they're not. Most of Europe and Japan are heading for demographic disaster, too many old people retired and too few young people working to support them. The only answer is massive immigration. It's happening already.

NOW.

Well, we're going to need a concervative revolution to stop the idiotic spending that's going on in Washington. I suspect we'll get one.

It will never be paid. We'll inflate the debt out of existance.

China: the friends and family of the Politburo own a huge set of entrprises full of dorms packed with practically slave labor. They build stuff and sell it in the US at absurdly low prices. They don't spend the monsy in China or on US imports, they invest it in US government bonds! And when we inflate our currency, they'll lose most of it and we'll keep the stuff they made. OK, who is smart and who is dumb here?

But UK? Does the UK still make anything?

boating towards here

Italy's birth rate is about 60% of replacement. Only a few euro countries are breeding. Europe is importing zillions of eastern europeans and muslims to do the plumbing and painting, but not integrating them very well. This is not good. The US is importing a much wider variety of people (including some superb technical and scientific talent) and integrating them very well.

John

On a sunny day (Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:38:52 -0700) it happened John Larkin wrote in :

countries.

Well, the Chinese are not only getting dollars, they use the dollars to buy US high tech, high tech knowhow, and then start their own high tech. In the US production is diverted to China, leaving the last few brain requiring jobs in the US, but Silicon valley is emptying itself I have read.

So after a while, China will lead in technology. They seem to have few problems manufacturing things that US screws up with repeatedly. Some years ago we discussed Boeing Dreamliner here, and how bad more delays would be. Boeing screwed up big time, why cannot they do what the Chinese have no problem with? I have a Chinese scooter, it has a thousand more features for the same price as one made in my country. It has sort of proven it's quality. Most computer stuff comes from China / Taiwan too. And Korea. The plants are there. That leaves agriculture for the US.

Taxies.

boating towards here

Well, lets get this straight, 30 years ago a German engineer helped US to the moon. After his death US goes around in circles a few miles high. Thousands watch the ISS pictures... But a few MIT students did the pictures for about 145 $.

Something is wrong with your government, the way is uses resources, or is NASA a social project to keep people busy? Then the US is not so different from the USSR or any other socialist country. It also lost it power, Obamama had to give way to on the issue of Israeli settlements in Palestine. He seems to be giving way on _all_ things he was elected for, medicare, environment, jobs, you name it. My view is that the multinationals will in the end also move weapon production to the countries of the people that _own_ the multinationals, and then will decide that the best battle ground is the US. A third world scenario.

countries.

Good. Technology kills Communism.

I can't imagine where you read that.

You have it backwards: the US is losing blue-collar, lower-middle-class manufacturing and construction jobs to imports and immigrants. The highly skilled are doing much better than the worker-types.

"Lead" is a slippery word. Of course China and India and other places will build more technological, less agricultural economies. That's good, in general.

repeatedly.

would be.

with?

The Chinese are trying to start a domestic airliner business. They have a very long way to go. Boeing's next-gen planes may be a few years late (as are all of Airbus's composite planes) but they'll be flying soon.

one

So the Chinese are killing your manufacturing jobs too.

And software, semiconductors, instruments, and the kind of car-crash movies that you love.

boating towards here

moon.

a social

settlements in Palestine.

environment, jobs,

to the countries

battle ground is the US.

Unlikely, but keep hoping.

Where do you live? What do you do?

John

On a sunny day (Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:30:45 -0700) it happened John Larkin wrote in :

to the countries

best battle ground is the US.

It is not hoping but simply logic.

Agree. But minerals? Where?

Oh yeah! Plus we have Digikey :-)

Huh? My clients have a very different opinion.

In the last 20-some years non has persisted. All clients/employers happy. What else do you want?

reply?

worse.

What have you been smoking? :-)

[...]

So, then, why does one read about brain drain so often in European newspapers? I assume you would trust a European commission on this, so here's a dose of reality for you:

Full confession: I am one of the guys mentioned there ;-)

Yup, I guess you are right on that one:

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

countries.

Silicon Valley is not emptying. It fluctuates up and down with the economy just like everything else. Where do you get such weird information from?

repeatedly.

would be.

problem with?

So, what would be the comparable Chinese aircraft and where can one buy it? It would be nice if you'd back up such statements with some facts.

as one

And tulips for NL?

Now for the meat: Where do you buy the world's most advanced DSP? Where was the processor in your Chinese PC engineered? Or how about the graphics chip? What Chinese FPGA have you been using lately and how many billion MAC/sec can it do?

No, hold the screwdriver, I'll tell you: The processor was engineered about 10 miles from here. If you want to meet some of the folks join us for church on Sunday :-))

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

Either a short shutter time or a high (e.g. 300 Hz) frame rate at the camera.

It can be converted, but the quality will be mediocre.

It should be remembered that in a typical digital TV setup with a GOP=10..15 (Group Of Pictures) this translates to about 2 full I-pictures (independent) each second, so one might argue that this is a 2 fps system.

The P-picture (predicted) contains information about the motion vectors and new information that is revealed from the background object, when the foreground object does no longer hide the background.

The motion vectors in the P-picture tells about the velocity of movement. For a linear motion, only the first P-picture after the I-picture contain significant motion vectors, for successive P-pictures the motion will be zero and does not need to be transmitted.

Only for acculturated motion (such as rotation) the subsequent P-pictures will contain significant coefficients.

Unfortunately of detecting false movement will also increase and the sharpness of the moving object can not be restored, even if the motion vectors are correct (unless there is a start and stop movement).

Some conversion results are available, but why do people complain about compression artifacts ?

Paul

IIRC this was at about 7-8" distance:

The focus wheel allows larger distances and the scope is tiny, about 1" diameter and 5" long. Meaning it doesn't get in the way, is light, and can be mounted on things like the boom of an old task light. Of course this is not a professional tool, tons of color abberation, some annoying focus wheel slack, all plastic. But for $100 it does a darn good job and I couldn't posssibly schlepp a Mantis to a client. Plus I get dizzy looking through those things ;-)

When I investigate stuff I can press a button, attach to an email and tell the client "Here, I found those same scratches on all five boards you sent, show this to the production manager."

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

On a sunny day (Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:38:28 +0300) it happened Paul Keinanen wrote in :

Well, I have some old Umatic material from analog (tube) cameras, I think Ikegami, then converted to VHS by somebody, then converted to DivX4 by me, I really cannot complain about compression artefacts, but the quality is not very good because of the old tapes and conversions. No motion problems. I digitised all my old VHS tapes to DivX4, many had tube camera material.

So I think there must be some other factor, like using too low a bitrate, too big GOPs, whatever else you can do wrong in mpeg2, the mpeg2enc encoder that I have, has a LOT of options, so have the various other codecs based on the same principle. One codec is not the other either. Because of some test, I did some mpeg1 encoding of material a while back, amazing how good that can be !

The same issue exists with the H264 codecs today, have a look here:

go to download and download the free comparison, or use this link directly:

Seems X264 is really one of the best (and I use it).

I have no idea what the broadcasters use these days, especially in the US. Also I do not know if they really even use different settings for different material. I know some German station did incredibly f*ck up recently when sending a movie... I really think those guys get zero training and just only know how to start a harddisk. Lately (say last month) I got much better, after I really was pissed of in some newsgroup about it. Will it stay OK? I dunno.

But indeed, as far as motion is concerned, it can _never_ match the original analog PAL. It (MPEG) will win on noise and bandwidth, dropouts, many generations error free copying, some other aspects.

repeatedly.

would be.

problem with?

as one

As a side note: While they have certainly come up to speed in electronics production they've got more fundamental problems to solve first. The pilot of a Hawker business jet who recently wanted to land in Beijing ran into difficulties. No, not permits, ATC accents, weather or whatever. He had a real problem getting the runway into sight at decision altitude (where you must abandon and declare a missed approach if you can't see it). The weather was perfect, it was all smog ...

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

PS The whole issue of mpeg like compression will not go away. Consider buying a digital camera. Until some years ago, most were mjpeg, producing a stream of digital jpeg pictures (on tape). These days we see more and more cameras with build in MPEG2 or whatever encoder, recording to FLASH memory.

If I had to be true to my understanding, and regarding the future, I would go for a mjpeg format, not a time compressed format like mpeg. Because the artefacts created by the mpeg like encoders cannot be undone. A stream of jpeg pictures is easier edited too. Memory size of FLASH will continue to increase, for a while at least, we see phase-change memory chips appearing too. It is the same with mp3 and wav, some music I just store as wave, and play as wave, enough memory... The quality is simply better then mp3, no matter what the bitrate, I mean use lossless compression. So, except perhaps for transmission, where there is a bandwidth limit, we shall be moving back to uncompressed formats for video too, as memory increases (wow think YUV). Something to think about when buying a digital video camera. But then, maybe I am ahead of things again here. I have both types of cameras... will hold on to them. Did I say that mpeg and friends is only a temporary solution? YES.

Digikey?! Joerg, I'm shocked! ...and here I respected you as the world's tightest wad. Digikey's prices are outrageous.

Well ... of course only for prototypes, very small runs and experiments :-)

I was just thinking back to the days when I was a kid and wanted a real RF transistor. Paid the equivalent of two bucks for a BFY90 at a local electronics store. We were lucky to have those (they are pretty much all gone now) but they were very pricey. Remember, these were 1970's Dollars. So here I was, my allowance permitted the investment in only one and it had to be treated like grandma's jewelry. I even socketed it so I could use in on several projects and sockets were only 10c. Imagine, a socketed RF transistor.

Nowadays you can by a super hotrod 65GHz ft transistor for a buck fifty in 2009 Dollars.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

production to the countries

best battle ground is the US.

Are you qualified to do logic?

What do you do, anyhow?

John

countries.

requiring

repeatedly.

would be.

problem with?

They are also planning - vaguely at present - a semi wide-body jet for longer hauls. They have a ways to go to develop the infrastructure to make these, but Airbus is giving them a lot of help.

John

Depends on your volume numbers.

countries.

requiring

repeatedly.

would be.

problem with?

200+ orders is not a bad start, but their initial offering (the ARJ-21) competes more with Bombardier (Canada) and Embraer (Brazil) in the regional jet bidness.

The number even sounds like a Bombardier number-- I've seen a lot of shiny new CRJ-200 jets in China.

Airbus is assembling A320s in Tianjin-- first one was just delivered:

Boeing has been assembling aircraft there for quite some time:

.. in fact an Airbus executive once told me they would rather not, but they had to put an assembly line in China to compete with Boeing.

... and various components such as the rudder for the new Boeing 787 are going to be made in china.

For the first time, Boeing has been spreading their state-of-the-art composite wing technology to Japan on the 787 (to win orders as well as spread costs and get government subsidies, of course), eventually that will pay off for the Japanese potential prime contractors, but they taking a long view and don't seem eager to jump into the breach with the astronomical subsidies that both Boeing and Airbus enjoy.

MHI = Mitsubishi Heavy Industries FHI = Fuji Heavy Industries

Regulation-wise, things seem to be getting ever more heavily ITARded, even as dual-use technology becomes more ubiquitous.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com