Banning per minute EV charging fee.

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It's about "time" they realize that some chargers are EV highway robbery. As i posted some months ago, final charging (above 70% of battery cap) costs more than gasoline equivalent. At 90%, it's more like 3x gasoline equivalent.

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edward.ming.lee
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It's not about the costs from what I read. They just want the charging to not be time based because they are selling electricity, not parking.

There are pay parking lots with chargers. I wonder if they will be required to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

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Rick C

I got around 100kwh for around $100 in billings, before canceling my account. That's around $1/kwh. If you don't think that price gouging, i don't know what is. Evgo is doing better than Enron.

Perhaps i should renew my account and sue them retroactively.

Reply to
edward.ming.lee

ery. As i posted some months ago, final charging (above 70% of battery cap ) costs more than gasoline equivalent. At 90%, it's more like 3x gasoline e quivalent.

to not be time based because they are selling electricity, not parking.

unt. That's around $1/kwh. If you don't think that price gouging, i don't know what is. Evgo is doing better than Enron.

I didn't say they were not price gouging. I said California isn't doing th is because of price gouging. It is because "electricity is considered a ty pe of motor vehicle fuel" and they have to follow the same rules. That's w hy they will also have to display the real time kWh provided to the car and other info just like a gas pump. The display in the car isn't enough. Th ey also will have to have a sticker to provide the rates so it can be seen before you start charging.

None of this will prevent price gouging. You will simply know you are bein g gouged when you start drawing power rather than knowing after you got the bill.

What do you drive?

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Rick C

bbery. As i posted some months ago, final charging (above 70% of battery c ap) costs more than gasoline equivalent. At 90%, it's more like 3x gasoline equivalent.

ng to not be time based because they are selling electricity, not parking.

count. That's around $1/kwh. If you don't think that price gouging, i don 't know what is. Evgo is doing better than Enron.

this because of price gouging. It is because "electricity is considered a type of motor vehicle fuel" and they have to follow the same rules. That's why they will also have to display the real time kWh provided to the car a nd other info just like a gas pump. The display in the car isn't enough. They also will have to have a sticker to provide the rates so it can be see n before you start charging.

They mentioned "sticker shock" in the article; so, pricing is also part of the issue. Yes, kWh display is important, as well as time charging and par king. This will prevent ICEs and PANs (Parked And Not charging) vehicles.

ing gouged when you start drawing power rather than knowing after you got t he bill.

50 miles Nissan Leaf for local. Rental ICEs for long distance.
Reply to
edward.ming.lee

red to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

No, they just can't have unreasonable charges.

Unfortunately, many charging spots are too desirable. I often argue with d octors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, it's your hospita l i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or PAN other veh icles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you can't park in AD A (handicap) spaces.

-------------------------------------- Proposed Vehicle with Disability Act (VDA): It is illegal to ICE (Internal Combusion Engine) electric vehicle charging area. It is illegal to PAN (Park And Not-charge) electric vehicle charging area. It is illegal to charge more than 10% of parking fee in similar area. It is illegal to charge more than 10% of regulated electric power.

Reply to
edward.ming.lee

robbery. As i posted some months ago, final charging (above 70% of battery cap) costs more than gasoline equivalent. At 90%, it's more like 3x gasoli ne equivalent.

ging to not be time based because they are selling electricity, not parking .

account. That's around $1/kwh. If you don't think that price gouging, i d on't know what is. Evgo is doing better than Enron.

g this because of price gouging. It is because "electricity is considered a type of motor vehicle fuel" and they have to follow the same rules. That 's why they will also have to display the real time kWh provided to the car and other info just like a gas pump. The display in the car isn't enough. They also will have to have a sticker to provide the rates so it can be s een before you start charging.

f the issue. Yes, kWh display is important, as well as time charging and p arking. This will prevent ICEs and PANs (Parked And Not charging) vehicles .

The article may have mentioned the "poor value" of some providers, but I do n't see a mention of this being a factor in the state's decision. In essen ce the state has said, this was already the law, they are just going to enf orce it for EVs. The issue is more one of the consumer being informed rath er than not being over charged. The law doesn't prevent overcharging. Hec k, the price of gas in CA is more than most anywhere in the US other than m aybe Hawaii.

being gouged when you start drawing power rather than knowing after you got the bill.

So you plug into 120 volts overnight? That works.

I met a guy at the Superchargers who drove a Leaf. He was there to promote his PV solar business I assume because an EV owner is probably more likely to buy PV solar than the average Joe. He was easy to talk to except he wo uld insist the only way to calculate the price you are currently paying for electricity is to divide your entire bill by the kWhs. Trouble with that is I don't care about that number, I care about the marginal cost of electr icity, the amount you will save by using PV solar. Nearly everyone has fix ed fees which you pay even with zero kWh usage and often multiple rates at different levels of use. Adding in the fixed costs makes PV solar look bet ter and ignoring the multiple tiers makes it look worse usually. Sometimes a LOT worse like in CA.

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Rick C

On Wednesday, December 25, 2019 at 10:44:46 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com w rote:

uired to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

doctors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, it's your hospi tal i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or PAN other v ehicles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you can't park in ADA (handicap) spaces.

g area.

.

What does EV charging have to do with a VDA law? How can it regulate prici ng??? The EVSE providers are all claiming they are not a utility and that is why they are not allowed to charge by the kWh in some states. Tesla wou ld just charge $0.28 everywhere, but they can't sell by the kWh in some sta tes because that would make them a utility. So they charge by the minute a t two rates depending on the charging rate.

I'm typically a "got no dog in this race" sort of guy like with gun control (partly because my charging is totally free at Superchargers). But I thin k it is a bit too early to start regulating EV charging too much. I believ e Electrify America is fairly priced even if higher than Tesla and in the l ong run all the little guys will get squeezed out and bought up until there are only two or three major networks in the US. Then they will compete mu ch like the airlines.

But keep in mind unlike ICE, most charging will be done at home or at work. Likely less than 10% of EV charging (or pick your favorite guess number) will be done at service stations. You and Win are poster children for home charging with very limited ranges on your cars. Heck, the "right" number may end up being "less than 1%".

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Rick C

equired to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

th doctors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, it's your hos pital i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or PAN other vehicles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you can't park i n ADA (handicap) spaces.

ing area.

ea.

cing??? The EVSE providers are all claiming they are not a utility and tha t is why they are not allowed to charge by the kWh in some states. Tesla w ould just charge $0.28 everywhere, but they can't sell by the kWh in some s tates because that would make them a utility. So they charge by the minute at two rates depending on the charging rate.

Typical Tesla BS. Many other chargers in California charge by kwh. Of cou rse they can't charge $0.28, because in many area, the rate is around $0.15 . My nearby solar operated charger is $0.05 and Nissan Dealer charger is $

0.00 per kWh.
Reply to
edward.ming.lee

required to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

with doctors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, it's your h ospital i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or PAN oth er vehicles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you can't park in ADA (handicap) spaces.

rging area.

area.

ricing??? The EVSE providers are all claiming they are not a utility and t hat is why they are not allowed to charge by the kWh in some states. Tesla would just charge $0.28 everywhere, but they can't sell by the kWh in some states because that would make them a utility. So they charge by the minu te at two rates depending on the charging rate.

ourse they can't charge $0.28, because in many area, the rate is around $0.

  1. My nearby solar operated charger is 15. My nearby solar operated charger is $0.05 and Nissan Dealer charger is $0.00 per kWh..05 and Nissan Dealer charger is 15. My nearby solar operated charger is $0.05 and Nissan Dealer charger is $0.00 per kWh..00 per kWh.

You seem to have misunderstood the message. What is it that you think I wr ote and why is it Tesla BS???

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Rick C

be required to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

e with doctors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, it's your hospital i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or PAN o ther vehicles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you can't pa rk in ADA (handicap) spaces.

harging area.

g area.

a.

pricing??? The EVSE providers are all claiming they are not a utility and that is why they are not allowed to charge by the kWh in some states. Tes la would just charge $0.28 everywhere, but they can't sell by the kWh in so me states because that would make them a utility. So they charge by the mi nute at two rates depending on the charging rate.

course they can't charge $0.28, because in many area, the rate is around $

0.15. My nearby solar operated charger is $0.05 and Nissan Dealer charger is $0.00 per kWh.

wrote and why is it Tesla BS???

Claiming that they can't charge by kWh is BS.

Reply to
edward.ming.lee

l be required to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

gue with doctors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, it's yo ur hospital i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or PAN other vehicles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you can't park in ADA (handicap) spaces.

charging area.

ing area.

rea.

.

te pricing??? The EVSE providers are all claiming they are not a utility a nd that is why they are not allowed to charge by the kWh in some states. T esla would just charge $0.28 everywhere, but they can't sell by the kWh in some states because that would make them a utility. So they charge by the minute at two rates depending on the charging rate.

Of course they can't charge $0.28, because in many area, the rate is around $0.15. My nearby solar operated charger is $0.05 and Nissan Dealer charge r is $0.00 per kWh.

I wrote and why is it Tesla BS???

In some states that is not BS the state requires you to be a utility to cha rge by the kWh. You would need to file with the public service commission and go though all the BS. I'm not sure what other problems it would create since the public service commission rules typically aren't set up for sell ing electricity "on the run".

I never said this was the case in CA. I believe the charge by the kWh in C A.

If you think EVSE providers should be able to charge by the kWh in every st ate you can go to the Tesla site and see which states charge by the minute and write to the PSCs there and find out what they allow. Tell them you do n't live there, but you feel they are doing it wrong.

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Rick C

ill be required to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

argue with doctors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, it's your hospital i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or P AN other vehicles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you can' t park in ADA (handicap) spaces.

le charging area.

rging area.

area.

er.

late pricing??? The EVSE providers are all claiming they are not a utility and that is why they are not allowed to charge by the kWh in some states. Tesla would just charge $0.28 everywhere, but they can't sell by the kWh i n some states because that would make them a utility. So they charge by th e minute at two rates depending on the charging rate.

Of course they can't charge $0.28, because in many area, the rate is arou nd $0.15. My nearby solar operated charger is $0.05 and Nissan Dealer char ger is $0.00 per kWh.

k I wrote and why is it Tesla BS???

harge by the kWh. You would need to file with the public service commissio n and go though all the BS. I'm not sure what other problems it would crea te since the public service commission rules typically aren't set up for se lling electricity "on the run".

Again, there are plenty of chargers selling by kWh. I think one school sel l at $0.20 / kWh. The problem is excessive rate, not the fact of selling b y kWh.

CA.

Tesla is still charging excessive rate by kWh in California.

state you can go to the Tesla site and see which states charge by the minut e and write to the PSCs there and find out what they allow. Tell them you don't live there, but you feel they are doing it wrong.

I don't care about Tesla, i only care about Evgo operating in California.

I actually spoke to someone in the cal dept of measurement at a charging st ation. They are starting to look into these rip-offs.

Reply to
edward.ming.lee

:

will be required to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

n argue with doctors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, it' s your hospital i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or PAN other vehicles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you ca n't park in ADA (handicap) spaces.

icle charging area.

harging area.

ar area.

ower.

gulate pricing??? The EVSE providers are all claiming they are not a utili ty and that is why they are not allowed to charge by the kWh in some states . Tesla would just charge $0.28 everywhere, but they can't sell by the kWh in some states because that would make them a utility. So they charge by the minute at two rates depending on the charging rate.

h. Of course they can't charge $0.28, because in many area, the rate is ar ound $0.15. My nearby solar operated charger is $0.05 and Nissan Dealer ch arger is $0.00 per kWh.

ink I wrote and why is it Tesla BS???

charge by the kWh. You would need to file with the public service commiss ion and go though all the BS. I'm not sure what other problems it would cr eate since the public service commission rules typically aren't set up for selling electricity "on the run".

ell at $0.20 / kWh. The problem is excessive rate, not the fact of selling by kWh.

Many chargers are free so should that be the standard to compare others? T here is no support for the idea that $0.28 per kWh at an EVSE is "excessive ". On the other hand Tesla's rate is the lowest fast charging rate you wil l find that is actually available on a wide scale. So clearly they are doi ng something right.

Do you think Tesla has no other expenses than the per kWh rate? Do you kno w what demand charges are? Tesla pays significant demand charges.

Please also consider that the early VCRs or flat panel TVs and virtually an y new product or service is priced higher than in a mature market. Why sho uld EVSEs be any different?

Another factor to consider is that on the road charging is largely done at peak times when electricity is most expensive. So there is no averaging ov er the lull demand times that allows residential rates to be moderate.

in CA.

y state you can go to the Tesla site and see which states charge by the min ute and write to the PSCs there and find out what they allow. Tell them yo u don't live there, but you feel they are doing it wrong.

Then why do you keep negging Tesla unjustifiably? Why do you care so much about Evgo? Isn't EA cheaper? Can't you charge at home? I can't picture taking over the road trips in a car that only has a 50 mile range. How lon g does it take to charge at an Evgo station? Do you run the battery from 1

00% down to 0% and then charge back up to 100%? That's one of the advantag es of having a larger battery. Keeping the top and bottom 10% in reserve k eeps the charging time down and prevents higher wear on the battery.

station. They are starting to look into these rip-offs.

Then from what I've been told they would start with gas prices. lol

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Rick C

te:

ey will be required to let you exit for free if you are charging. lol

ten argue with doctors in a hospital chargers next to the building. Yes, i t's your hospital i am just visiting, but you do not have the right to ICE or PAN other vehicles. Even if you are the president of the hospital, you can't park in ADA (handicap) spaces.

ehicle charging area.

charging area.

milar area.

c power.

regulate pricing??? The EVSE providers are all claiming they are not a uti lity and that is why they are not allowed to charge by the kWh in some stat es. Tesla would just charge $0.28 everywhere, but they can't sell by the k Wh in some states because that would make them a utility. So they charge b y the minute at two rates depending on the charging rate.

kwh. Of course they can't charge $0.28, because in many area, the rate is around $0.15. My nearby solar operated charger is $0.05 and Nissan Dealer charger is $0.00 per kWh.

think I wrote and why is it Tesla BS???

to charge by the kWh. You would need to file with the public service commi ssion and go though all the BS. I'm not sure what other problems it would create since the public service commission rules typically aren't set up fo r selling electricity "on the run".

sell at $0.20 / kWh. The problem is excessive rate, not the fact of selli ng by kWh.

maximum rate should be capped to (130% of) local electricity rate. There i s no minimum.

ive". On the other hand Tesla's rate is the lowest fast charging rate you will find that is actually available on a wide scale. So clearly they are doing something right.

now what demand charges are? Tesla pays significant demand charges.

any new product or service is priced higher than in a mature market. Why s hould EVSEs be any different?

TV & VCR are not essential service. EV charging is.

t peak times when electricity is most expensive. So there is no averaging over the lull demand times that allows residential rates to be moderate.

h in CA.

ery state you can go to the Tesla site and see which states charge by the m inute and write to the PSCs there and find out what they allow. Tell them you don't live there, but you feel they are doing it wrong.

a.

Tesla is a private club, just using it as example for comparison.

Evgo is a micro monopoly is a few places between North and South California .

When they are ready, perhaps. But not real yet.

a car that only has a 50 mile range. How long does it take to charge at a n Evgo station?

45 minutes with fast charging.
0%?

Yes, 40 to 50 miles to the next station. Must charge to 100%.

p and bottom 10% in reserve keeps the charging time down and prevents highe r wear on the battery.

A business can not punish me for having a Vehicle with Disability.

g station. They are starting to look into these rip-offs.

They do, gas stations are highly regulated and controlled for markups. Hig h price is from whole-sale oil companies.

Reply to
edward.ming.lee

?

is no minimum.

Should we set prices for gasoline as well?

ssive". On the other hand Tesla's rate is the lowest fast charging rate yo u will find that is actually available on a wide scale. So clearly they ar e doing something right.

know what demand charges are? Tesla pays significant demand charges.

y any new product or service is priced higher than in a mature market. Why should EVSEs be any different?

I think that is a specious argument. We have many "essential" services tha t are not regulated. How about food and water? Should water that you can buy in a store for $0.50 a gal cost $1.00 for 12 ounces at the 7-11?

This is just not going to happen. Your 110% number would literally drive m any providers out of business if adopted country wide.

at peak times when electricity is most expensive. So there is no averagin g over the lull demand times that allows residential rates to be moderate.

You didn't respond to this point. Give the industry some years to sort thi ngs out. Once there is more competition the prices will naturally adjust. There needs to be enough demand that competition will develop.

Imagine buying gasoline to run cars in 1900. If the government had stepped in and regulated the price the industry would have folded and cars would h ave languished.

You mean no other car company is willing to invest in the infrastructure? That's not Tesla's choice. They have publicly said they will allow anyone to use their network, but they have to pony up money for expansion. Let's face it, the charging network is the single biggest selling feature of Tesl a cars. Without that you have... a Leaf with 300 mile range.

That's why I say they should grow that network faster than they are making cars. It's not enough to have sufficient numbers to charge their cars. Th ey need the red and white pedestals in every town and city with over 50,000 population to let people see the presence.

ia.

A micro monopoly that will work out with a little time. It's too early to constrain the business. But then it's easy for me to say. I have the enti re Tesla network, a 10 stall Supercharging station about two miles from me here, all at no charge to me as long as I own the car.

I find a lot of them between San Francisco and Los Angeles. Maybe not enou gh for a car with only a 50 mile range though. They seem to be about 50 mi les apart. But it looks like they are in more urban areas rather than alon g Rt 5 which appears to be the highway.

I don't think that makes Evgo a "micro-monopoly". That just means you are misusing the car for something it is not suited for.

in a car that only has a 50 mile range. How long does it take to charge at an Evgo station?

Fast being 50 kW? I've heard the Leaf has battery longevity issues because they don't control the battery temperature well enough like the Teslas do. Fast charging may be a factor in that.

100%?

In the Teslas that is also an issue, but not a large one. Musk has said it 's ok to use 90% on a regular basis, the data shows the degradation is very slightly faster. 100% even is not a big deal for wear but you shouldn't u se it all the time. It takes maybe 20 minutes to get that last 10% though. At 90% the charging rate is down to 30 kW and goes down to 6 kW as it app roaches 100%. Between 15% and 60% you can get 90/100 miles in 15 minutes ( ~30% in my car).

top and bottom 10% in reserve keeps the charging time down and prevents hig her wear on the battery.

I don't know what that means. I thought people had disabilities.

igh price is from whole-sale oil companies.

They limit the price a gas station can charge??? I haven't heard of that.

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Rick C

rs?

re is no minimum.

cessive". On the other hand Tesla's rate is the lowest fast charging rate you will find that is actually available on a wide scale. So clearly they are doing something right.

ou know what demand charges are? Tesla pays significant demand charges.

lly any new product or service is priced higher than in a mature market. W hy should EVSEs be any different?

hat are not regulated. How about food and water? Should water that you ca n buy in a store for $0.50 a gal cost $1.00 for 12 ounces at the 7-11?

many providers out of business if adopted country wide.

Yes, i change it to 130%. They can make plenty of profit with a little bit of investment of solar at $0.03. In fact, most solar chargers are less th an $0.10.

I am going to ask Walmart to let me put a solar charger next to the Evgo st ation. I believe i can break-even for much less. Of course, i won't pay a ny kickback like they got from Evgo.

ne at peak times when electricity is most expensive. So there is no averag ing over the lull demand times that allows residential rates to be moderate .

hings out. Once there is more competition the prices will naturally adjust . There needs to be enough demand that competition will develop.

In these isolated area, electricity is cheap. In one station, there is a h uge solar farm supplying electricity for $0.03

ed in and regulated the price the industry would have folded and cars would have languished.

Electricity is much more widely available than gasoline at the time.

That's not Tesla's choice. They have publicly said they will allow anyon e to use their network, but they have to pony up money for expansion. Let' s face it, the charging network is the single biggest selling feature of Te sla cars. Without that you have... a Leaf with 300 mile range.

But i can't tell Nissan to pay Tesla.

g cars. It's not enough to have sufficient numbers to charge their cars. They need the red and white pedestals in every town and city with over 50,0

00 population to let people see the presence.

rnia.

o constrain the business. But then it's easy for me to say. I have the en tire Tesla network, a 10 stall Supercharging station about two miles from m e here, all at no charge to me as long as I own the car.

ough for a car with only a 50 mile range though. They seem to be about 50 miles apart. But it looks like they are in more urban areas rather than al ong Rt 5 which appears to be the highway.

e misusing the car for something it is not suited for.

s in a car that only has a 50 mile range. How long does it take to charge at an Evgo station?

se they don't control the battery temperature well enough like the Teslas d o. Fast charging may be a factor in that.

OK to charge to 100% and immediately use it up.

o 100%?

it's ok to use 90% on a regular basis, the data shows the degradation is ve ry slightly faster. 100% even is not a big deal for wear but you shouldn't use it all the time. It takes maybe 20 minutes to get that last 10% thoug h. At 90% the charging rate is down to 30 kW and goes down to 6 kW as it a pproaches 100%. Between 15% and 60% you can get 90/100 miles in 15 minutes (~30% in my car).

e top and bottom 10% in reserve keeps the charging time down and prevents h igher wear on the battery.

High price is from whole-sale oil companies.

.

They verify the amount of gas pumped at given price. Same for EV, amount o f electricity at given price. Gas station don't charge you for staying at the pump.

Reply to
edward.ming.lee

The Amtrak/MBTA parking garage here has a bunch of Level 2 Chargepoint chargers, they're "free"

Parking at the lot itself is $15/day, not pro-rated either so if you stay 24 hours and one minute the bill is $30.

Which is a real rip-off.

Reply to
bitrex

In downtown Boston proper it's easy to find garages that have chargers that don't charge for electricity but the parking fee is $48 for three hours. That's Boston for ya...

Reply to
bitrex

It's not unusual to pay $50/day to park in San Francisco. Charging is usually free.

Reply to
edward.ming.lee

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