Attorney generals trying to shut down usenet?

I would suspect that many college graduates could successfully home school, but not all of them.

Many who choose to do so, are rejecting typical public education environments as corrupting. That is their choice, and they must bear the consequences of that choice. And that includes corrupt "standards" testing.

The problems predate the testing, which merely exposed them.

But fine. If the teachers are so great, testing is the real problem, and teachers are "teaching to the test," why can't they even do that?

If the teachers are teaching the test specifically, why are scores still so low ? (And only in certain schools.)

Best, James Arthur

So students--whose careers depend on their grades--should be forgiven for cheating as well ? The system forces them ?

No it isn't.

First of all, money doesn't buy good teachers. Good teachers, like good engineers, aren't in it for the money. Just increasing pay willy-nilly does nothing.

Second, California teachers make 120% of the national average.

Third, in support of the above, the areas where pay is highest, D.C. and California, are among the worst of performers (link below).

Fourth, the NEA puts the average California teacher's

2004 salary at $58K, and that's basically a lie:

To skew the averages downward NEA counts substitute, temporary, and other low-paid workers as teachers.

Pay varies a lot by district; where I am, with a few basic tricks you can multiply above by 1.4.

That's for 8 month's work, iron-clad permanent employment, and doesn't include extra benefits worth about 32%. (California teachers have their own retirement system, exempt from Social Security.)

I have utmost respect for good teachers--there's scarcely a more important job. That's not what we're talking about.

Cull the laggards and give the remainder their pay--that's my inclination.

Michelle Rhee is trying to do just that in D.C., heaven help her.

Cheers, James Arthur

James Arthur wrote in news:kTj6k.91633$bs3.12362@trnddc07:

I guess you never had the anticipation of waiting until Dad got home to hear what you had done. It was very effective.

debatable.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

No I'm saying that the testing is yet another added problem.

I didn't say that the teachers where great. I said that the tests are yet another problem.

The kids aren't learning much at home and the bad teachers tend to end up in in the low pay areas.

No we should be fixing problems not adding new ones on top of the old ones. The teachers watch the students to make sure they don't cheat and punishes those who do. It also watches what the teachers do and punishes those who don't teach to the test. This is what is happening. If you want the teachers to stop teaching to the test, we need to stop punishing those who don't and rewarding those who do.

Yes it is. Compare your income to that of a teacher. Do you honestly think that your skill level is higher than that of the ideal teacher?

I didn't suggest that pay was the only problem.

A California ditch digger makes more than 120% of the national average. California is a high cost of living state.

The highest pay is where the cost of living is the highest but it is too low everywhere.

Actually yes it is what we are talking about. You have spent the whole time dissing the teachers.

My brother is a teacher and he agrees 100%. That would push the average class size up to about 100 students so you would have to hire more teachers. You won't find many applying for the job.

[snip] [snip]

Only with animals... children know and remember what they did.

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

| 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

My father actually beat-up a neighbor father whose teenage daughter beat the crap out of me when I was 6.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

So said Mr. Pavlov. Same with people...I'm sure I could dig up some boring support if you insist.

True, but that just changes the time-constants.

In the typical grocery-store melt-down scenario, where some moms threaten, bribe, plead, and negotiate, my dad would just rap us on the forehead with his finger--in public, private, wherever--as needed, before a big scene developed.

Instant feedback.

That quickly got us in line and everyone--small and big--was happier.

A finger tap on the forehead. Minimum force, maximum effect.

(My dad was a pediatrician--he *knew* how to manage unruly tykes.)

Punish a 3 year-old a day after running into the street? You'll have no effect.

Consistency is important, per Mr. Pavlov. If the conditioning is inconsistent, the conditioning is relatively ineffective.

(We've all seen those parents.)

Another element is uncertainty...if you KNOW you'll get it, you're a lot less likely to try. If murderers 100% knew they'd be caught and executed that same day, murder would be a lot less popular.

Cheers, James Arthur

Those kind of people shouldn't be parents.

I despise screaming parents, and kids.

Once upon a time in Safeway...

I'm pushing a cart down an aisle. Ahead of me is a little girl sitting in a cart screaming her head off because "Mommy" won't let her have something.

"Mommy" is at the far end of the aisle ignoring screaming kid.

As I pass by the little girl I lean over and say, "If you were my kid I'd kick the shit out of you".

INSTANT cessation of screaming!

Just as I passed by the mother she looked up inquisitively... and I smiled and just kept walking.

Today I would probably be arrested ;-)

I didn't say immediate redress wasn't effective. But children can be punished after-the-fact, withhold privileges, etc.

Consistency really is important.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

nd

ose

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en

A girl beat me up when I was in 6th grade, at recess, with many of my classmates watching.

Within a few years, she had grown into a real beuty.

I still have fantasies...

[snip]

That's a hybrid case--if you get caught and 100% know you're dead when Dad gets home, then you've gotten at least some real-time feedback, along with a significant feed-forward term (the dread of things to come) !

Cheers! James Arthur

Unions in cahoots with big government.

Thanks, Rich

...

I say, anyone who gets paid with taxpayers' (stolen)[1] money should be forbidden to unionize.

Thanks, Rich

[1] Taxation, after all, is nothing more than thinly disguised theft.

If a person has to resort to violence to get kids to behave, then they don't have any business being anywhere near children.

"Oh, what about the intractable ones?" I hear you cry.

Kick them out. School is a privilege. (Gawd knows they're not learning anything anyway.)

Hope This Helps! Rich

That's why they pool their talents. Sort of a "micro school". Not everybody has an engineering degree and then engineers aren't so great at literature, usually.

For some reason nearly all of the kids I know that are home schooled are educated, friendly (even towards adults which is unusual these days), motivated and know what it means to take on responsibilities. When I ask one of them to take care of the audio stuff at church I can assume it will be taken care of. They don't just not show up etc.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

You just don't get the magnitude of the problem or you wouldn't be defending it.

10% of students reading at grade level isn't excusable, it's not a fluke, it's not from lack of money, it's not from low pay, and it's not because of a multiple- choice test.

It's because the whole in-bred system is a disaster.

Having listened to a blank-faced high school principal drone out an hour's worth of gawdawful thoughtless platitudes, and knowing she's the school's leader, the one in charge with the vision, who sets the course, tells me the leaders are clueless.

And that was a good school.

Having received endless 5-minute auto-dialed pre-recorded phone updates about sports victories and campus trivia, bi-lingual, with mentions of school closings and PSAT test dates as afterthoughts, at the end, says they don't know their priorities.

Maybe you haven't argued with yet another teacher-- making an engineer's salary for 1/2 the hours-- who insisted that Russia's entire population was >90% female, who refused to be corrected--even by a handy textbook, not swayed even by photos of crowds--because _she'd been there herself_, and still swore it, and taught this to her class...

They run the schools, are themselves their own administrators, set the standards for students and teachers and teaching alike; award credentials, set pay, promote, drive out newcomers.

They control the state's politics, endorse candidates, run vicious political attack ads, consume more than half the state's budget.

Yeah, you just don't see it.

It's not teachers exactly--there are great ones, and they're treasures--it's what, overall, they've become.

Best regards, James Arthur

a

How does a parent kick an intractable child out of a family?

Off with their heads !

Best, James Arthur