Attorney generals trying to shut down usenet?

I think the term "NeoCons" was coined by the "NeoLibs". Most of the Republicans I know are really quite Libertarian... laissez faire, do what you want... just stay out of my face.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Oh it's not complicated at all. The ISPs never needed carry USENET, nor needed they ever any excuse to drop it if they wished to.

Occam's Razor slices off any need of money-following, it's just basic politics, Mencken-style. [1]

[1] i.e., politicians, saving us from boogeymen.

Which naturally led to us discussing the politics arising of it. IOW, standard s.e.d. OT fare.

Cheers, James Arthur

i suspect that this evaluation is closer to the truth.

...only when it comes to matters of business & money.

--not when it comes to social policy, where the current crop of Right Wingers DO like to meddle.

aka "Noblesse Oblige"; "Shared Responsibility"; "Egalitarinanism". Left Wingers DO like regulation of commerce and monetary speculation. (Wonder why gas prices shot up? Speculators.)

"Just" is an understatement: What they *want* is the current best SCIENCE (and the Scientific Method which supports that) to be replaced with a particular fundamentalist religious dogma AND HAVING *THAT* CALLED "SCIENCE" ...and they are quite persistant about this. (If this stupidity is allowed to fester, American society is doomed.)

First, I'd like to see a cite for *clean needles for high schoolers*.

"Sleeping Beauty" needs to be taught at EACH grade level: Trying to protect your child

*by destroying every spinning wheel in the kingdom* is STUPID. Make sure your kid is TAUGHT about the dangers of spindles rather than trying to *shield* him/her from the existance of spindles.

In 8 millenia, have we learned NOTHING as a species about what what works and what doesn't? KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. Ignorance breeds MORE ignorance.

This goes direclty to The Scientific Method already mentioned.

Ignorance and unwillingness to accept facts aside, there are working models of the paradigms you mentioned

--but *NIH* and *Dogma* and *Won't do their homework* seem to be the paradigms adopted by the Right. (Goldwater is spinning in his grave.)

On the other side of the equation (the Scientific Method again) is the fact that students in "Abstinence-Only" programs have HIGHER rates of teen pregnancy and STDs.

Living in a gated community doesn't put you in "a different culture".

Things that are actually *debated* on the floors of the camerals

--with NeoCons (as well as actual Conservatives) participating.

As are true Conservatives. See "NeoCon" (above).

I question your data set--or maybe the current image of the Right shows an indifferent placation by non-fundies.

It's called "The Competitive Market of Ideas". NeoCons lost the last round--and, having shown their philosophy is "The emperor has no clothes" all over again, will lose the majority of the forseeable contests.

If they want to win, they have to show up with bettter evidence to support their case. Not holding my breath WRT that hollow promise.

That party needs a new Goldwater--not another Gingrich. They need to think about *How to Govern* and stop concentrating on the constant *campaigning*

--even when they hold power.

On the last point, I hope the opposition heeds that as well. ...then again, The Gingrich Revolution may have put us past the point of no return.

...unless they claim to be selling "Internet access"

--meaning ALL 65,536 ports.

The law needs to establish their status as *utilities*

--that is *common carriers*.

OTOH, if they're going to start grading content and restricting content, THEN they need classified accordingly ("content provider") and held responsible for **ALL** content passing thru their nodes

--and they don't have anywhere near enough manpower to do THAT.

In your post above you've given several examples wanting to impose your views and values on others, and exasperated intolerance at their dissent.

If other people want to teach their kids non-scientific stuff, isn't that their business? Not ours to stuff "the true way" down their throats? Isn't that their freedom of religion, a basic right in our country? To each his own?

You've listed several principles you believe in, and seem frustrated you can't coerce "neo-cons" to adopt them. But why should we have that power over another's liberties?

You also express a number of obviously wrong impressions / stereotypes, such as conservative religious-types living in gated communities. That couldn't possibly be anywhere close to true, if you pause and think about it.

Just a few more thoughts...

Best wishes, James Arthur

It's Attorneys General, NOT Attorney Generals ;-)

I have sons-in-law and daughters-in-law, NOT son-in-laws and daughter-in-laws.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Do it at home or at Sunday school. The word you are looking for is "appropriate".

I see you've drunk the Kook-Aid. Science class is about SCIENCE. What is being proposed by the religious zealots is not even NON-science--it is ANTI-SCIENCE.

Didn't ANYONE learn the Scientific Method in school? (They're certainly intent on removing it in some locales. This is a prescription for failure as a 21st Century nation.)

I'd be happy with OPEN, HONEST discussion of the topics. Back-door methodologies are what bug me.

Party pooper. Hyperbole is fun. 8-)

It may seem that way to you but that isn't the way it really is. I assume that you are a conservative and therefor agree with the many ways that they are meddling with your life.

It is conservatives that are for ever trying to put laws about what goes on in peoples bedrooms onto the books. They are the ones trying to force their religious views onto others.

Are you aware, for example, that putting the words "under god" into the pledge turned it into an oath and thus made saying it a sin in the eyes of many?

They also try to prevent all the others from learning about evolution or they use the new ridiculous line of "teach the controversy" to suggest that the opinions of a few loons should be given equal weight to that of the great bulk of the scientific community.

... and a very effective way to keep the birth rate, the disease rate and even the rate of having sex lower.

It may come as a shock to you but the "abstinence only education" is about as effective at reducing the rates of having sex as the movie "reefer madness" was at reducing the rate of drug use. The city I live in has an "abstinence only" sex education program, which like all the others I've heard of is considered "just a pack of lies told by the old folks" by the students. They know they are being lied to on some of it so they figure it is all lies and instead believe the stories that pass around through high schools everywhere.

I can remember the things that were thought to be facts by many in my high school class. Most of them were merely nonsense but some where dangerous nonsense.

That of course is complete nonsense. It is the republicans that are dictating insane priorities these days and it was the republicans that did so in the past. Remember it was Nixon that did wage and price controls etc etc.

They may be few but they are in control to a degree that far out weighs their numbers. Look at how McCain had to pander to them to get the nomination. See how "gay marriage" is used so often to get the republican base out. The religious extreme faction of the republican party is the biggest voting block in the base.

Just a few comments on a bright sunny afternoon.

It doesn't really matter because none of the skool kids are paying attention in class.

How about a compromise? Scientific Creationism perhaps?

If you enjoy reading science fiction, you'll love some of the proposed theories explaining biblical events. See various links near the bottom of the article under "proponents".

Also:

By the way, the earth is flat, but you already knew that.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

No, I am not and do not. I simply don't notice any impact.

Agreed, and that offends me, but that's only a few, not the many.

It's a sin in my eyes because it violates separation of church and state.

That problem arises because they're compelled to send their kids to government schools.

It doesn't matter if it's effective. People have a right to teach their kids their particular value systems, which might include not teaching certain things at all.

I don't know why schools are involved in this. It's a parent's job, not the schools'. Schools should first master their own business: teaching math and reading and such.

In my time we learned the basics in health class, to the extent it was a health concern, and concerned parents' kids could opt out. None did.

(Of course my parents got me a book when I was 5 explaining the whole business. I read it, I understood it, I just couldn't imagine why on earth anyone would want to do that!)

I understand that's your impression. Have any current examples of how your personal liberties have been affected?

Thanks! I appreciate the exchange.

James Arthur

But are they militant litigators?

Cheers, James Arthur

Maybe you really are and just don't know it. You may even be a Neocon and not actually be aware of it.

A quick test is to see if you realize that both "Fox News" and Rush Limbaugh are oxymorons. If you don't see why that is true, you just might be a Neocon.

I think I could make a nice Foxworthesk list of "You might be a Neocon" jokes if I worked at it. :)

There are *way* too many.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are among those who see it from the side of letting the state get into religion.

In most states, they are only required to pay for the schools not to use them. They are free to send their kids to private schools. Most states also allow home schooling.

The root of the problem is not that they are required to send their kids anywhere. Basically the root of the problem is that they are loony.

Yes but they have no right to control what happens in a public school. They can do like my muslim friend and send their kids to their own school if they want to keep them ignorant of some things. In the case of my friend it was the depiction of people that was part of the issue. To them all pictures of living things are a sin.

Sex and how to balance a check book come under the "and such".

I think the opt out idea is fine, so long as the class is still taught for those who don't.

I was quite a bit older when the "birds and the bees" talk was had. If I had to put a number on it, 9 or 10 would be about where I'd guess. I didn't interrupt with corrections.

Yes,

More later. The wife just went by with some "frozen desert product" as shee called it.

...or, more importantly, given equal weight to the Scientific Method which quickly disassembles "the c>That problem arises because

The reason for public schools is to produce useful members of society. If you don't want to be a member of *this* society, find another.

Alternatively, teach your own kids

--of course, you will have to demonstrate competency to produce the same kind of useful educated adults that our post-industrial society needs, as the public schools are intended to do.

...and to go to the heart of your argumentative point, just because a parent believes that 2 + 2 does NOT equal 4, does NOT give his kid the privilege to put an incorrect answer on his test and expect to have it graded as correct.

He doesn't get to skip math class either

--even if his parent thinks it's the Devil's tool.

Now, if anti-mathematics is obviously not acceptable, explain how the anti-science hocus-pocus is acceptable.

The answer to things you disagree with is NOT *less* discussion. State your arguments against the points you think are bogus

--to your kid and to the world at large. If he finds more truth in that than what he gets elsewhere, so be it--but Fahrenheit 451 is NOT the answer. (Again: Reference the Sleeping Beauty story.)

It's about teaching future members of society how their bodies work such that they know what their hearts do and livers do

--but you're saying they shouldn't know the function of ALL parts.

The process of producing offspring is part of the life sciences. How NOT to produce offspring at the wrong time (and how not to get a disease in the process) is useful knowledge for members of society.

This goes back to my Sleeping Beauty analogy. There is NO circumstance where ignorance is better than knowledge. It also goes to my 2 + 2 point: Do we assure that no quotients will work out to 666? It gets pretty silly really quickly.

Getting back to my point about certifying parents as teachers, I saw a demonstration where they gave parents the sex-ed test

--and most FLUNKED. Few would have made good tutors.

We're seeing what the opt-out nonsense gets us with the idiots who won't vaccinate their kids. Choose to be a member of this society or find another. Being a member comes with obligations.

The problem is that on many subjects children don't have time to fully explore the issues. It takes time to do the full explanation so often we have to live with telling them "we know XXX is true". Those who choose to become scientists may go back and look at it but most will just go on with their lives.

A simple example of this sort of case is "don't plug the toaster and the electric frying pan into the same outlet because that doesn't work". If you are making breakfast, you don't have time to stop to explain about resistance and power etc.

We have the same situation when it comes to things like antibiotic resistance in diseases. We don't have time to give a person the full education about the evolution of bacteria so we have to say "take all the pills even if you feel better" and have them believe you about it being the best action to take.

There are private schools too. Don't leave them out of the discussion.

It is the devil's tool. Did you know that 666/212 is almost exactly PI? What more proof do you need?

[snip]

I agree with you on Rush, but you clearly don't watch (or listen to) Fox News.

Won't you have a problem with no one laughing ?:-)

[snip]

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

One son-in-law is... he's a prosecutor ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave

Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

have you ever read any of Rush's -brother's- work? David Limbaugh,a frequent NRO columnist. Good stuff.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

I wasn't aware of him, I'll look him up.

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
         America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave