4017 chip won't behave!

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com is how my gmail are addressed...maybe it has something to do with a binary attachment.

something to do with a binary attachment.

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None of the attachments are binary; there are two .zip files, two .lib 
files, and two .asc files. 

In any case, there are free file transfer sites around, and I just 
found one, ofile, which seems like it'll work. 

I'm going to try to upload the files there and I'm successful  
(or not), I'll let you know. 

Didn't work... 

Got any ideas?

something to do with a binary attachment.

Try renaming the attribute for the zip file to something else like ".sch"- a lot of virus protection programs block .zip as a matter of course. Or maybe you can describe your logic system scheme in words.

lot of virus protection programs block .zip as a matter of course. Or maybe you can describe your logic system scheme in words.

I'm getting a problem with unzipping the two .zip files here too. The .asc files won't complete the schematic without them by the look of it. Which program were they created with, John?

lot of virus protection programs block .zip as a matter of course. Or maybe you can describe your logic system scheme in words.

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Better yet, since a picture is worth a thousand words, I'll try to 
email you a .pdf of the LTspice schematic so you can see what's going 
on and, if you want to run the sim, I'll upload the schematic to the 
LTspice user group at: 

 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LTspice/ 

where you can find the support files necessary to run it.

On Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:32:15 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@virgin.net wrote :

te:

h"- a lot of virus protection programs block .zip as a matter of course. Or maybe you can describe your logic system scheme in words.

c files won't complete the schematic without them by the look of it. Which program were they created with, John?

In the meantime, the 40103 counter based schematic would look like so. I wo uldn't let the crystal scare you away from using it, they are dog simple, c heap and readily available. Almost any tuning fork style 32.768KHz will do, idealy you just match up the specified loading capacitance to be within th e range of the capacitance shown. Any other form of timing for this duratio n doesn't make any sense at all. An RC-based oscillator with a time constan t on the order of 1-second could easily be off by days. Please view in a fixed-width font such as Courier.

. . . 7 DAY TIMER 2HZ CLK OPTION . . NOMINAL TIMING ERROR LESS THAN 1 MINUTE . . . MANUAL START/ RESET VCC . | . .----------------+---------+ . | | 1N4148 | . | --- | . | / \ | CD40106 . | CNT --- | U1:A RST . '---o | |\ ---- . \o--[100K]--+--[1K]--| o-------. | . .---o | |/ | | CNT . | RST | | | ---- . | | | | . | === | | . | 0.68u| | | . | | | | . +----------------+---------' | . | | . --- .----------------' . COM | . .-----------|---------------------------. . | | | . | | U2:A U1:B | . | | __ U2:B | . | '----\ \ |\ __ | . | | o--+--| o----\ \ | __ . | .----/__/ | |/ | o-' TO PL U3-5 . | | | .--/__/ ASYNC LOAD . | | | | . | U2:C | | | . | __ | CD4002 | | . +----\ \ | U2 | | . | | o--' | '-------. . .--|----/__/ | | . | | | | . | | | U2:D | . | | PRELOAD SYNCHRONIZER | __ | . | | '------\ \ | __ . | | | o---+ TO TE U3 . | +------------------------------/__/ | CNT ENABLE . | | | . | | | . | | .-----------------------------------' . | | | . .---|--|--|---------. . | | | | | - 0 - - 0 - 2HZ CLK . | | +--|------. | 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 . | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | . | | | | ---------------------------------- . | | | | |__ __ __ | . | | | | |PL PE MR P0 P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 | . | | | | |__ | . | | | '-----|TE __| . | | | | 74HC40103 TC|--. .2HZ | | | | U3 | | .CLK>-|---+--|--------|>CP | | . | | | | LSByte | | . | | | ---------------------------------- | . | | | | . | | | .----------------------------------------' . | | | | . +---|--|-----|------. - 5 - - 7 - 2HZ CLK . | | +-----|---. | 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 . | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | . | | | | ---------------------------------- . | | | | |__ __ __ | . | | | | |PL PE MR P0 P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 | . | | | | |__ | . | | | '--|TE __| . | | | | 74HC40103 TC|--. . | | | | U4 | | . | +--|--------|>CP | | . | | | | NSByte | | . | | | ---------------------------------- | . | | | | . | | | .----------------------------------------' . | | | | . +---|--|-----|------. - 2 - - 1 - 2HZ CLK . | | '-----|---. | 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 . | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1/2s . | | | ---------------------------------- . | | | |__ __ __ | ->| |CP | | STRETCHER . | | MSByte | | . | ---------------------------------- | . | | . '----------------------------------------------------' . __ . 2HZ CLK . --- | CD4060 | . COM | U6 ____ | . |PHI1 PHI0 | . ---------------------------- . | | . +--------[15M]--------+ . | | . | | . | CRYSTAL [330K] . | _ | . +--------||_||--------+ . | |_ . 10P | 32.768KHZ 39P |/| . === === . | /| . '---------+-----------' . | . --- . COM . . . . . OUTPUT PULSE STRETCHER . . VCC . |_ . |/| . [1M] . U1 /| . CD40106 | . [10K] . |\ |\ 1N4148 | |\ . OUT >--| o---| o--| TO SOLENOID DRVR . |/ |/ 1U| | |/ . === === || . - - | |0.01U ------ . | | --- --- | | . |__| COM COM _| |_ . . . . unused . |\ . .--| o-- . | |/ . --- . COM . . . . .

lot of virus protection programs block .zip as a matter of course. Or maybe you can describe your logic system scheme in words.

files won't complete the schematic without them by the look of it. Which program were they created with, John?

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http://www.startsdownload.com/winrar/

OK, well they unpack fine now using Winrar. Hmmm. Interesting. Some unfamiliar bits here. Going to have to concentrate and study this. Which method are you recommending out of the two, BTW? The one using the Johnson Counters or the ripple counter one?

bits here. Going to have to concentrate and study this. Which method are you recommending out of the two, BTW? The one using the Johnson Counters or the ripple counter one?

Sorry, I mean the one using the 4017s or the one using the 4020/4024s?

unfamiliar bits here. Going to have to concentrate and study this. Which method are you recommending out of the two, BTW? The one using the Johnson Counters or the ripple counter one?

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I'd use the simplest solution, the 4020/4024 string since it's 2 chips 
instead of 6. 

The rest of the stuff is pretty much a wash since it's the same in 
either circuit. 

BTW, how are you planning to get the 1Hz clock signal?

familiar bits here. Going to have to concentrate and study this. Which meth od are you recommending out of the two, BTW? The one using the Johnson Coun ters or the ripple counter one?

I like your idea of the gated oscillator. You can also do that with the CD4

060 xystal oscillators. That may cost you a few hundred milliseconds startu p delay, which is nothing in this application, this method saves idle power and eliminates any requirement for synchronization of a manual START. Your circuit can then use the 2Hz CLK by just shifting all your counter decode bits one place to the right. Please view in a fixed-width font such as Courier.

. . MANUAL START/ RESET VCC . | . .----------------+---------+ . | | 1N4148 | . | --- | . | / \ | CD40106 . | CNT --- | U1:A RST . '---o | |\ ---- . \o--[100K]--+--[1K]--| o-------. | . .---o | |/ | | CNT . | RST | | | ---- . | === | | . | 0.68u| | | . | | | | . +----------------+---------' | . | | . --- | . COM | . | . | . .-----------------------------------' . | . | . | ------- 2HZ CLK OSC -------- . +----|RST | 2HZ CLK . | | Q14|------. . | | CD4060 | | . | | U2 ____ | | . | |PHI1 PHI0 | | . | ---------------------------- | . | | | | . | +--------[15M]--------+ | . | | | | . | | (1) | | . | | CRYSTAL [330K] | . | | _ | | . | +--------||_||--------+ | . | | |_ | . | 10P | 32.768KHZ 39P |/| | . | === === | . | | /| | . | +---------------------' | . | | 1.Epson C-002RX 32.7680K | . | --- 12pF loading 20ppm cyl | . | COM | . | | . to 74HC4020 CLK . to MR 's . . .

You mean to use in place of V3 in your schematic? 555 again. This one I happened across looks just the job:

happened across looks just the job:

Oh, wait a minute.... if you're referring to the design using the 4017s that should be V1. Got to be clear about which one we're discussing here!

Only if they are identical apart from the number of transistors. They are not; we were discussing reliability of 4000 series CMOS logic vs modern microcontrollers.

No it is not. Transistors on an IC don't just fail with some random probability per transistor. It is not that the individual transistors are "unreliable". There are distinct causes of failure, each with different likelihood depending partly on the process technology but mainly on the design. Both of the device and of the end product it is embedded in.

So that, for the example of ESD failure, the microcontroller as a whole could well be more robust against this failure mode than a 4017. Even though the individual transistors in the microcontrollers are hundreds of times more sensitive if they were exposed directly. Or perhaps the

4017 is more robust.

Only in general terms. I do know that the reliability of both old and modern chips is entirely dominated by packaging, environment and design. Actual in-use failures due to simple "number of transistors" must be vanishingly rare.

So you don't know?

It is a reasonable question.

--

John Devereux

This one is $15.90, and with some patience you should be able to get it for about $10 on (fl)ebay.

No idea if it's any good-- I use the real Microchip stuff.

No I am not-- the 2 seems to have more solid support, but some seem to have gotten 3 to work.

The complaints seem to be pretty old..

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward" 
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com 
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

North America isn't just the United States. Hawaii is an island. US Protectorates aren't physically part of the Continental United States.

Well sure. They also ship to Canada, Mexico, and several small nations between Mexico and Columbia.

?-)

ain of seven CD4017BE decade counters. The first in the chain gets clock pu lses from a 555 running at about 10Hz. I take the last output from this chi p (puts out one pulse for every 10 input pulses) and feed it to the input o f the next chip where the same thing is done and so on so the pulses get ti me-divided by 10 at each stage. All's fine up to decade 4, then something o dd happens. Instead of just pulsing, the output goes high and remains high until the next pulse comes along and toggles it back to low, so this stage' s output is high for far too long.

've paid proper attention to grounding and decoupling. Funny thing is, if I transfer the components over to proto-board, the problem disappears. Do th ese symptoms ring a bell with anyone? Is the 4017 particularly layout-sensi tive?

Yeah. Use a microcontroller. It'll take up much less space, be way more accurate and much easier to change settings. Sorry, you asked for ideas.

G²

The start of this thread was about how cheap it was to use these half-a-buck pics

From what I saw, you needed to initialize it on windows and it didn't work with 64-bit java (no indication of what brand, or versions of, java it does work with... GUI only too AFAICT

Yeah, but also noone's said that it now works out of the box.

--
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