Protel 99SE - a good choice

I run Protel 3.x (the "about" box shows EDA Client 3.6.0 as version number) regularly under XP (US version). Yes, there are crashes from time to time, but on my machine, these happen rarely and do not corrupt files - I can not exactly remember how to reproduce a crash now, but they were related to certain operations, which I avoid now, so it is quite useable for my kind of work.

I use Protel DXP at work, and that is a low slower and crashed more often then my old 3.6.0 running under XP.

It really is - I have bought vmware 3.x to run Windows software under Linux without booting the "real" windows machine, and I have vmware 4.5 (360-day limited) from a german magazine CD running on XP for various tests (try out bootable CDs etc.).

I seem to remember that vmware gave away one of their vmware server versions

- I have not tried if these work for interactive work.

Furthermore, there is the vmware player, which can run pre-configured virtual machines at no cost - either use the limited time demo to set one up, or start from a downloaded VM image. This should work fine for Win 98 usage.

Also I read that Microsoft is also giving away its virtual server software - I have not tried that because the download required a passport account.

If you are happy with the functions/performance your Protel version offers, keeping it (either in a virtual machine or on a dedicated PC) is probably the cheapest and easiest solution.

cu Michael

--
Some people have no repect of age unless it is bottled.

I would suggest that an upgrade to Protel 99SE is a good option. The cost may be steep but it was (if you use SP6) the most stable of the recent releases. Polygon pours are far better and the forward annotate/back annotate behave as you would expect. The DDB format files is the best to use as it has the fewest incompatibilities. You must, however, enable compact on closing. You also need to check the licensing agreement before buying. So of the more recent sales have a new license, in it you can't sell Protel so there is no support or upgrades. I would avoid going to DXP (not AD2006) unless you need some of its features. I can't say I've been impressed with it as its slow and very resource hungry.

So a brief history of Protel: Protel 2.8 Windows 3.x / OS2 (windows box). First stable windows version. Very good but not compatible with newer OS's. Forward annotate was very BAD and tended to produce a considerable of unneeded changes. Protel 3.0 Very good but five individual programs. Polygon pours are slow but work. Protel 98 Very buggy, free upgrade to Protel 99 Protel 99 Replaced at SP3 level by 99SE Protel 99SE SP6 was the last of the good releases, a few crashes are experienced especially with less than 512 meg RAM or ATI video. Works best with Matrox Video or nvidia video cards. DXP New version (bloatware) under new license agreement. tends to crash often, considerable numberof workarounds required. Serious development issue is feature addition rather than stability as main focus. AD2006 More features than DXP. Should have been a free "bug fix" upgrade not a new expense.

Simon

adventure.

number)

not

of

Linux

out

versions

software -

offers,

Okay, then I'll wager that some system tray or other background app that I'm running on both machines is the culprit.

-- Mike Elliott

How clean a box are you running?

The "Related Stories" are also worth a read

--especially "...sabotage...". 8-)

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:hiWoWmS-9pgJ:

(Black Viper sez to avoid the "Services" tab.)

Yikes! That's a mighty impressive page you linked to.

-- m.e.

*Deep theatrical bow* 8-) The original is 404. You may have noticed that I had to go to the Wayback Machine (the Internet Archive) to find an old copy.

The default config of XP reminds me of the translation of "Gumbo" that goes: "Yeah, throw that in too."

Right, well, I know my machines are not as "clean" as the default XP setup listed on that link. I'm got all kinds of exciting and normally zero-trouble background apps showing in the system tray, including Avast antivirus, OpenOffice Quicklauncher, VNC Server, Gmail Notifier, NTI Shadow (background backup operations), Personal Smartcheck (HD monitoring), Java Platform . . . and a dozen or so more bits. None of which normally cause any trouble at all. But maybe Protel 3.x is deeply disturbed by one or more of them.

Doesn't "safe mode" provide some way to launch XP in a cleanly way?

More useful, though, might be a means to selectively launch my "special" apps so I can trial and error troubleshoot for possible conflicts with Protel.

-- m.e.

Yeah. Safe Mode won't go thru the Startup List launching things. The problem is that it uses generic device drivers and will look like crap

--not really a solution.

The solution is simple: just follow my motto: "Don't waste RAM on an app until you actually NEED it running. (That goes double WRT boot time.)"

Mike, One thing that Protel didn't get along with in the P98 & P99SE version time frame was antivirus scans on open/run and close/save. Don't know about back at 3.X versions but just thought I would mention it as a likely suspect if your antivirus was set up for scanning on file open/run and close/save. That did tend to just crash during file opening or closing though, sounds like your problems are more intermittent during actual design operations.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Mike Elliott"  wrote in message 
news:QOidnZ7SkpCiBhjZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> On 6/5/2006 11:31 PM JeffM wrote:
SNIP
>
> Right, well, I know my machines are not as "clean" as the default XP setup 
> listed on that link. I\'m got all kinds of exciting and normally 
> zero-trouble background apps showing in the system tray, including Avast 
> antivirus, OpenOffice Quicklauncher, VNC Server, Gmail Notifier, NTI
SNIP

Thanks for the thought. You are correct: the problems I am experiencing are timed randomly, near as I can tell. I have not noticed any open/run

- close/save crashes. Repouring polygons can sometimes trigger the crash. Moving a bunch of grouped items in PCB can also. Looking at the screen cross-eyed while considering the next route can, too. Crashes generally result in a GPF in Module ADVPCB.exe about (and I'm not exaggerating here) 30 times when re-launching. I literally have 30 GPF's in a row, serially, that I have to dismiss until they stop. The next launch will generally be successful.

-- m.e.

Two machines. Pretty identical setups. I'm pretty sure it's some utility that I run in the background that I have determined provides a useful service and never gives trouble. Except to Protel.

-- m.e.

Followup to my original posting about intermittent crashes of old Protel

3.x on both of my WinXP machines. For the archives.

The suggestion that I try running Protel under VM Workstation was an excellent one. Protel 3.x's autorouter is still a piece of rubbish,and the program is, overall, still a pain to deal with. But it's running sweetly under VM Workstation. $189 for VM Workstation is a steal, compared with the $3,000 I was offered by the local Altium rep for a pre-owned copy of 99SE, or $10,000 for a seat of Altium.

Many thanks to all who chimed in to offer suggestions!

BTW, if anyone wants to sell their legal copy of 99SE, which I am told is a good stable Protel, please drop me a note. I am not trolling for warez.

-- m.e.

Mike, Your chances of finding P99SE for sale (legitimately) is slim. Back when Protel upgraded to DXP, now AD, there was a run on valid P99SE licenses amongst the professionals not wanting to upgrade but wanting the security of additional seats if needed down the road. I used to hear of P99SE licenses for sale every couple of months. I haven't heard of one being offered for sale for a couple of years now.

One warning, demand to see the EULA for any purchase in advance and confirm the legitimacy of the license transfer directly with Altium. Even back with P99SE, Altium changed the license agreement on late sales of P99SE to exclude sales and transfers (except if a whole company or company division and it's assets were purchased). Anyone that upgraded to DXP and agreed to DXP's license terms, negated their prior EULA that would have allowed the sale of their prior P99SE license if they also uninstalled the newer version. The DXP EULA contains wording that negates the transferability of earlier EULAs. So caution is the word if you really want to be legit.

The other problem is that a lot of the P99SE support documentation and tools are no longer to be found on the Altium website. Some are but not a lot of them. Forget the paper manuals, little better than the online help and it was never updated over many changes/improvements to the product. If you did get a license you could try posting so that I notice. I could email a lot of the support files and documentation as I archived most of it years ago before it started to disappear.

You could also try the Yahoo groups, there used to be a Yahoo group "Protel Software for Sale" or something similar. It is one of about 6 groups if you search for "Protel". It is/was run by a fella named Abd-ul Rahman just to facilitate sales of old Protel licenses. Sometimes he was selling licenses that he had purchased, sometimes he was simply acting as a broker. He is legitimate and trustable, I have been acquainted with him for about 6 years now. If you contacted him he will probably repeat most of what I have said above and then some.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Mike Elliott"  wrote in message 
news:XNudnbaeYe5CzRLZnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>
> BTW, if anyone wants to sell their legal copy of 99SE, which I am told is 
> a good stable Protel, please drop me a note. I am not trolling for warez.
>
> -- m.e.

Many thanks for the background and tips, Brad!

-- m.e.

Brad, I'm not seeing how to de-spam your e-mail address, so I'll post this any maybe you can send me an e-mail at your convenience - just delete the GOLLY.

I guess I'm biting the bullet and buying a seat of AD with a "legacy"

25% discount. A costly upgrade for my needs, one that really puts frost on my pumpkin.

I would like to take you up on your offer for copies of the support information you so thoughtfully archived.

-- Mike Elliott

99SE is reasonably decent. It is a good upgrade from 3.x. I tried demos of later versions, and for my needs they add nothing worthwhile, while eating up 10x more resources. Like many other Windows programs, the programmers seem to be rewriting the application using Microsofts latest buzzword technologies, making it slower without adding much. Going from simple monochrome pictures to indicate which dimensions one is changing for a pad to going to pictures with a shiny copper sheen, which does not give any more info but takes much more processing power to display.

Regards Anton Erasmus

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:e0R7iiJZWwQJ:

You can also download a legal copy of VMWare for free now. This way you can run Win98 inside your XP machine as a virtual machine. Much nicer than having to dual boot all the time.

Regards Anton Erasmus