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Big bug in PSpice??

Hallo,

I've discovered a phenomen which I claim to be a fatal PSpice error, at least something that I don't understand at all.

Try simulate the following netlist

  • source 3_029_B01_TLINEVERIFICATION V_V_DC N00124 0 2 R_R_DC N00124 C1 52 X_T_DC C1 0 0 0 FIM02YHBY PARAMS: LEN=100 R_R_TRAN N00504 C2 52 V_V_TRAN N00504 0
+PULSE 0 2 10n 1n 1n 1m 2m X_T_TRAN C2 0 0 0 FIM02YHBY PARAMS: LEN=100

To clarify the whole thing. I have two lines of 100m each. Each line is shorted at the end and fed via a 2V and 52R resistance. C1 and C2 are the nodes at the input of the lines.

The subcircuit of the transmission line is

*FIM02YHBY is a shielded twisted pair from Gebauer&Griller *The shield is not modelled as conductor but its influence on *the line parameters is accounted. *Model parameter derived by measurement and calculation. Refer to *document 3-029-B01-D001 for details. *6.283 is an approximation of 2*Pi *Both resistors prevent a node floating error. *----------- *Pin Desc *10 Near end high *20 Near end low *30 Far end high *40 Far end low .subckt FIM02YHBY NH NL FH FL PARAMS: LEN=1 T NH NL FH FL T1 R1 NH FH {1/GMIN} R2 NL FL {1/GMIN} .model T1 TRN( +r={342m+0*sqrt(s/6.283)} +l=493.17n +g={0*(s/6.283)} +c=45.216p
  • LEN={LEN}) .ends

To my model, skin effect and dielectric losses are prepared but yet not considered, therefor the 0 in the formulas. All other values I have measured on a real piece of cable very carefully.

Now make a transient simulation to t=1m. After this time the transient has settled down to its final state. So the voltage on node C1 and C2 should be the same, cause it is simply a voltage divider from the DC losses of the line and the source resistors of 52 Ohms. But my simulation shows a big difference. C1 is at 793mV which is the correct value assuming that the line has 100m length and 342mOhm per meter. C2 is at 1.05V which leads to a DC resistance of 574mOhm per meter.

So what's the story? Why shows the same trasnmission line a DC resistance of 342mOhm per meter and 574mOhm per meter?

I'm really looking forward to any good explanations, because this shatters any confidence in the reliability of PSpice.

By the way: I'm running OrCAD Pspice 10.0

Best regards

Oliver Friedrich

Reply to
Oliver Friedrich
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I doubt it's really a bug in the PSpice "core" per se, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a limitation of the transmission line model PSpice uses, or perhaps the behavioral modeling code. ("Limitation" implies that the inaccuracies are known and -- somewhere -- documented, whereas "bug" implies something's going on that the PSpice designers were unaware of.) You're asking PSpice to do the following here:

1) Accurately model a lossy transmission line. This is challenging to do correctly in the general case (you still see the occasional journal papers where people are trying to create better models). 2) Convert the results back to the time domain for your transient simulation. This is also difficult (in fact, many SPICE simulators don't even support this feature).

To someone who's been using SPICE simulators for awhile, the fact that you get an incorrect answer is not too surprising. :-) Of course, you *should* forward your example to ORCAD support and ask them to tell you what's going on. I'm still placing my bets on the behavior being a known limitation rather than a bug...

---Joel

Reply to
Joel Kolstad

I just took a quick glance awhile ago, and didn't have time to respond, but I'm sure Joel is correct. It appears you are using the default T-line model for one of your lines... this is idealistic, and mostly is useful for delay modeling. Use the "lossy" model instead.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Hallo Jim,

what do you mean when you are talking of the "lossy model". The T-line model PSpice provides can be configured with either td and Z0 or it allows to pass arguments for R L G C. This implies that this model claims to be capable of modelling a lossy line. I don't know any other implemented models in PSpice. Perhaps you mean the lumped elements model with discrete R L G C. But that's not a model to my understanding but a subcircuit. If you mean that, I'll give it a try. Are there any other yet to me unknown flaws and restrictions to expect. Telling me that saves a lot of bother for me;-)

Definetely it is a bad thing if you are spending the major of your time with trying to bypass restrictions of a tool and discovering the undocumented "features" in it rather than just to bloody use it.

Every day I work with PSpice gets me a little more unhappy with it. Of course you are the last one to blame I suppose. This posting is more an aggregation of all my dissapointments I've experienced with PSpice.

Thank you for your help

Oliver Friedrich

Reply to
Oliver Friedrich

"Joel Kolstad" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

Hallo Joel,

I'm looking forward to get any domentation from you describing this "restriction". To me it is an error and nothing else. Don't blandish! The major task of a simulation model is to simulate its real counterpart as close as possible. Since you can't model the reality perfectly the most important information that must be provided with any model is a documentation of where it is applicable and where it is not applicable. This documentation must be available and not hidden in a little vague application note on website xyz of university scoobydoo department PSpice forensics.

These undocumented "features" take away a lot of valuable time from you and me and everyone. Sure it is inevitable that software has bugs, but when I discover a bug let me call it a bug.

Sorry if I offended you, it's not your fault, but at the moment I'm angry

Oliver Friedrich

Reply to
Oliver Friedrich

[snip]

Use part name "TLOSSY"

Part "T" is idealistic

Stop whining and learn the tool, or go flip burgers. RTFM!

What version are you using? Student or professional?

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Page 304, v15.7 Pspice Reference Guide.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

According to my really old pspice manual (version 6.3) "T" is used for both the lossy and lossless model. This might have changed in newer versions, but it was at least valid at some point in time.

Oliver, your pulse source has really strange values. It looks to me as if a new pulse is started before one minute is over. That could explain the different voltages. If your problem still persists please give a complete .cir file, then I might be able to have a look.

Georg

Reply to
Georg Baum

Hi Oliver,

Yeah, but it could be a "user error." :-)

As I say, send your file to ORCAD support, and let a support guy tell you what's going on.

I agree with this sentiment in general, and I have observed that some software packages seem to try to hide important information regarding their product's limitations.

As you ask a simulator to do more complicated things, to get reasonable results out of it you do get a little "sucked into" having to know how the simulator works internally. I use field solvers every now and again, and -- compared to SPICE -- it's easy to get absolute nonsense out of them unless you're very careful. Depending on whose field solver you use, sometimes the documentation is pretty good about guiding you to run test cases to make sure the results you're getting are reasonable... other times they just assume you're well-versed in the subject and don't volunteer a safety harness or life preserver.

(If you're ever hard up for a paper to get your employer to send you to a conference, a perennial favorite is to just gather up a half-dozen or so EM simulators, run some challenging test case such as a spiral inductor on lossy silicon, and compare and contrast the results. :-) Some papers like this don't even have a real, physically-manufactured reference wafer built for comparison's sake!)

Let us know what Cadence says about your test case... maybe it'll turn out to be a bug after all!

---Joel

Reply to
Joel Kolstad

Oliver, Sorry you found out that simulators are not reality - "the map is not the territory." In PSpice, the transmission line is done behaviorly, there is not a DC connection between the input pins and the output pins. So, you can get very interesting results. One thing you can not really do is tline filter synthesis and matching. The tool isn't built for it. The primary goal in PSpice tlines is to match drive impedance, output impedance, and provide appropriate delays (and getting the delays close is not a trivial matter, believe you me!) As Jim has pointed out, the PSpice Reference Guide has all this documented, so it ain't a bug, just a known limitation of the tool.

Charlie

Reply to
Charlie Edmondson

Hallo Jim,

ROFL, that's really a cool answer!!

I'm using professional 10.0 and found something interesting in the mean time.

Modelling the r of the line

case1: r=342m no skin effect returns almost the correct answer, slightly different but for peace sake...

case: r={342m+0*sqrt(s)} formally modelled with skin effect but set the coefficient to zero. Obviously should return the same result as case1 but doesn't, give it a try! Also, the simulation speed drops to roughly 1/3 of case1 although it should have to do more work, with all that convolution stuff, shouldn't it?

I'm getting more and more convinced that this behaviour is unintendet and unknown, so calling it a bug is still an issue for me!

Finally: Your burger phrase is really great fun and a good lesson for a german guy to learn cool expressions, but you mustn't think that I'm a stupid idiot. Sure you're right, and you might get pissed off with all my complaining, so now I'll stop whining and return to discussion;-)

Looking forward to hear new cool stuff

Oliver Friedrich

Reply to
Oliver Friedrich

Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately I don't have v15.7 hence I don't have the documentation for it. I'm running 10.0 and this document offers me a distributed model of a lossy transmission line with

.model TRN(r=1 l=1 g=1 c=1)

The document refers to a paper by Roychowdhury and Pederson that claims to describe the internal implementation of the behavioural model. So don't come with RTFM!

There's also a TLOSSY model but not available for PSpice Basics. Do you mean that?

Oliver Friedrich

Reply to
Oliver Friedrich

Aha! So you don't have the non-behavioral model.

You don't have to flip burgers after all ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Jim Thompson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Hallo Jim,

I am really glad to hear that from you!

Finally I have to admit that I was not aware of the great difficulties of modelling transmission lines. That seems to be an open chapter in the history uf simulating. So maybe my brain breeds some great innovations in lossy line modelling while the rest of mine is busy with cooking (burgers?)

Thank you for your help and your humor!

Oliver Friedrich

Reply to
Oliver Friedrich

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