Any recommendations?
- posted
15 years ago
Any recommendations?
Yes. Don't do it. It's a huge waste of money.
Sylvia.
Not to someone who wants it. I'm sure Terry is aware of the cost/payback implications. There are many reasons why people get PV installations. No different to anything else really.
Dave.
I'll second that. There are lots of motivations even including doing it for enjoyment!
It doesn't just cost him money. It costs me money. He'll use the PV cells to reduce his power demand when then sun is shining, and use grid supplied electricity when it's not. This reduces the overall utilisation of the grid and the generators attached to it, which pushes up the cost of the electricity that it delivers. As a consumer of that electricity, I have to pay more as a result.
Sylvia.
That's a very narrow minded view indeed.
Do you realise it may also help you? You complained the other week that you needed a generator because of the "parlous" state of the power system in Australia (and in Sydney where you live). By Terry installing a solar system that might just help make the power system less "parlous", and it might even SAVE you money by you not having to buy that back up generator after all. You should be thanking him for installing one.
Dave.
I think it unlikely that his installation of PV cells would impact on my decision to install a generator. I doubt I would ever be able to determine whether he'd actually improved the reliability of my supply.
By contrast, the impact his installation has on electricity pricing is quite direct.
Sylvia.
It saves you money because in summer when loads are at their highest running air conditioners, power is very expensive because peaking generators are used, these are only used a few days a year and usually run on very expensive diesel. Solar systems are ideal for reducing peak loads in hot weather. Base load power generation is cheap, building and running plant that might only be used a few days a year is extremely expensive. Also, demand for power is highest during the day when solar systems are most productive.
Your analysis of why the cost goes up to grid consumers is a pretty long bow to draw.
If the grid is utilised less (on a reasonable scale), then one of two things are likely:
Of course the electricity distribution & associated cost-disbursement system in this country is far too complicated for such simple generalised analyses...
Chris.
I don't think that works out. We can get very hot weather even with haze that reduces the effectiveness of solar panels.
Sylvia.
That's a short term effect. In the longer term the generating capacity will adjust to meet demand.
Fuel is not the only cost in the production of electricity. Capital is a major cost. The equipment has to be there whether or not it's in use, and the capital costs have to be shared amongst the users.
A person who installs solar cells is essentially using the grid as a free backup, and their demand on the grid will be more variable, and less predictable, than the demand of someone without solar cells. In a truely transparent market, a person would have to pay a premium to be allowed to buy power on the basis that they may not buy any, but are guaranteed to be able to buy whatever amount they want whenever they want to.
Sylvia.
That is part of what I want to investigate further. Given that electricty prices are taking off and a feeling that interest rates are going to stay low for a while, this might be the best time to "invest"
Yep.
Err, those monstrous power stations are spinning anyway 24x7. What I can not work out is why I can not battery bank off peak electricty.
Second, even if 10K people did it, I doubt if they will have any effect like the 10%, 20%, 305 electricty price hikes bouncing around.
The ones that are running 24x7 (which usually run on coal) are doing so to supply the baseload - it's not as if there's power going spare. Other power stations, which typically run on natural gas, or are hydro stations, only run for part of the time, to meet higher loads.
However, there's nothing to stop you battery banking off peak - if you can find an economic way of doing it. However, even running the numbers on the back of an envelope will quickly show that it's not just uneconomic - it's hugely uneconomic.
No, they probably wouldn't. But any effect they do have is in addition to the price rises we're getting.
Sylvia.
**Not IMO. The best time to invest will be later, when one of several things occur:
All this needs to be balanced against rising electricity costs, of course.
**Indeed. Some do it, because they feel that they are making a difference.-- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au
That is proposed to be changed in June to a very attactive feed-in rate (IIRC, 5 times), as mentioned in a recent thread. Also, the solar rebate will no longer be means tested after that date. It is currently means tested, and any household over (IIRC) $100K income gets nothing back. Both are excellent moves.
But if you care about the "carbon" point of view, then come June you will be subsidising the big polluters, as your quota of solar energy will be counted in the mandatory targets. This is a really really bad move.
Dave..
There are a few niches where it works. For example a 1kilowatt system can be had fully installed for less than $4,000 after goverment rebates. With the 25 year warranty it should just about break even at this point.
Also QLD you can sell back excess power for 44c/kwhour, about 3 times what it costs to buy, so you will also save some on your power bill. I was about to get one installed because it worked out marginally cheaper for me, but they moved the $8,000 to families that earn under $100k.
Indeed its becoming 'not so bad'. You can get PV installed for about $12,000 per kilowatt. For each kilowatt you will draw typically about 3200kwhours per year, if they last 20 years (and there are no maintainance costs for inverters etc) then it would be an ok investment as long as power was costing at least 12000/(3200*20) = 18.75. Of course with the $8k rebate and selling excess power to the grid at 44c per kilowatt it *should* be possible to make money. But tell that to all the people who are spending $1000 per year replacing inverters etc... I don't know of anyone who has PV who hasn't had enless inverter troubles. I think the constant temp cycling while going from 0 load at night to full several kilowatt load is just to much for them and I haven't seen any that are reliable enough that the manufacturer will give 5-10 year warranties, which is what you really want.
Of course we will eventually reach the point where excess power from PV's will be worthless to the grid, as there will be no demand during the day, and heaps of demand during the night. Then we will see everyone switching from non-battery to battery (at the moment if you have batteries you may not sell back to the grid, so no one does it).
I advise people to stay away from pv as the most they can save is there power bill, which simply isn't worth the risk of outlayings many many thousands of dollars.
Well, even there it remains a huge waste of money - just that the money being wasted is the taxpayer's.
I can't imagine why QLD power utilities are required to pay so much for it, other than political stupidity.
Sylvia.
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