Very high VOC toxicity levels are being measured. The exact sources(s) unkn own, and remediation is very expensive if it's even possible. California, i n particular, but the rest of U.S. to a lesser degree, is being challenged by one hellacious intractable mess after another.
That's hilarious, showering and watering plants with expensive bottled water.
It's the fear-AGC effect. Some people just need things to be afraid of. They should just watch horror movies.
nknown, and remediation is very expensive if it's even possible. California , in particular, but the rest of U.S. to a lesser degree, is being challeng ed by one hellacious intractable mess after another.
inated-drinking-water/
The state also has 35,000 abandoned oil wells emitting VOCs among other air borne contamination and poised to do massive damage to underground aquifers . California taxpayers will be saddled with billions in expense to plug and cap these wells properly. The oil company spin-offs that now own them can' t begin to cover the costs. Don't want to go near Kern County as if anyone is so inclined. As usual the military left their trademark signature of ho rrendous environmental damage mismanaging that operation.
My big fear in life is exploding some electrolytic caps from excessive ripple current. My team of therapists are helping me with that.
I live in the San Lorenzo Valley and have a little experience with the CZU fire. The water contamination problem was benzene contamination from melted and overheated HDPE (high density polyethylene) plastic water pipes. Areas that were affected were quickly mapped by the SLVWD (San Lorenzo Valley Water District) and customers along the affected areas were told "do not drink, do not boil" while water quality tests were run. This took a few weeks because every water district in all the fire zone had the same problem causing the labs to be overloaded. Here are the water quality reports: and latest map: The map was revised many times since the fire. As of Nov 12, there are no areas remaining under the "do not drink, do not boil" order. To get there, a large number of water storage tanks and miles of pipe were replaced. I left out a substantial amount of detail. If there are any questions, feel free to ask.
I would like to thank you for providing me with my joke of the day. Literally every word of your posting is either misleading, out of date, wrong, or some combination of these.
Yes, there are areas still remaining that are failing water quality tests because of construction and supply delays for replacement pipes. The sources of VoC water contamination are well known. They are a bi-product of the fire burning or melting plastic HDPE pipe. A secondary source of other contaminants (usually non-volatile) is ground water incursion into the water pipes when the pipes lose water pressure. When the water system has pressure, very little ground water can leak back into the water system. When the pipes lose pressure from a melted pipe, ground water can contaminate the water in the pipe. This apparently happened in a few areas that have breaks in the underground pipes.
Yes, remediation can be expensive. At best, it involves replacing the existing above or underground HDPE pipes. At worst, various government agencies battle to the death to see which one can spend the most money on regulatory obstructions. Fortunately, we have little of the latter. The EPA is doing a very good job helping with the cleanup effort and utilities replacement is moving along at a reasonable pace. Public safety repairs, such as water quality, are very high on the priority list.
Yes, California and the USA are being challenged by serial disasters. If you look back in history, the US has had such problems in the past on a smaller scale and survived. The difference between history and today is that the population is much higher today and therefore more people are affect.
In the future, please resist the temptation to post out of date alarmist rubbish to an unrelated newsgroup.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 5:25:08 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot e:
inated-drinking-water/
You've been duped by your local drinking water bureaucrats. They cite a bun ch of regulatory gibberish about maximum contaminant levels but fail to men tion all those regulations are 20 years out of date. We know much more now about how dangerous contaminant levels can be. San Lorenzo's own contaminan t measurements indicate arsenic at nearly 900x the level considered safe. H ere's a bunch of others.
Perhaps the standards haven't been updated for 20 years (actually 24 years) because they work and don't need to be updated? Have we had any mass poisonings by drinking water that test below the current standards?
It didn't take much effort to see how the EWG works. They set unrealistic goals for water purity (ERG recommended health guidelines), grades water district test reports, and proclaims that the water is therefore unsafe. In order to do that, I would need to accept the numbers from the EWG. which proposes to change to about 100 items: According to the PDF, these proposed standards come from either EWG or the California Public Health Goal: Incidentally, in the first section: A PHG is the level of a chemical contaminant in drinking water that does not pose a significant risk to health. PHGs are not regulatory standards. Oddly, EWG is using PHG to establish their standards.
Incidentally, water quality standards do get reviewed as needed. Arsenic was changed from 50ppm to 20ppm in 2001 (effective in 2006). In 2000, congress directed the EPA to look into a 5ppm limit. Apparently, it didn't pass.
I noticed that a large number of reasons for tightening the contamination limits was cancer related. I guess we're suppose to be having an increase in cancer incidence. It's quite the opposite with overall cancer cases being either constant or decreasing since 1992 in nine US areas: (The peak at 1992 is caused by advances in cancer detection (mostly PET scans) where produced an increase in new incidences due to early detection. Since the cancer rates are flat or decreasing, do we really need tighter water quality standards?
If you expect to be treated with respect, please refrain from name calling (i.e. "childishly") and other forms of childish behavior.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Oops. A made several mistakes here. The paragraph should read:
Incidentally, water quality standards do get reviewed as needed. Arsenic was changed from 50 ppb to 20 ppb in 2001 (effective in 2006). In 2000, congress directed the EPA to look into a 5 ppb limit.
5ppb didn't pass, but 10 ppb became the new standard in 2006.On October 31, 2001, the EPA announced the 10 ppb standard for arsenic would remain. The EPA Administrator, Christine Todd Whitman, stated that "the 10 ppb protects public health based on the best available science and ensures that the cost of the standard is achievable." Notice the word "cost". You could have tap water with impurities at distilled water levels, if you're willing to pay for it.
Arsenic in Some Bottled Water Brands at Unsafe Levels, Consumer Reports Says (2019) Consumer Reports wants a 3 ppb limit. EWG wants 0.004 ppb.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 11:52:10 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wro te:
You can't go by that old stuff dating to 2000-2010. There were still a lot of unknowns and conducting detailed studies was very difficult to impossibl e. One thing they did know was the dependence of the incidence of the most common cancers associated with arsenic, lung and bladder, on concentration in drinking water was exponential. Check the IARC and NTP links here:
Ummm, what old stuff? If you're referring to the SEER 9 statistics, they go up to 2016. Trump was inaugurated in Jan 2017. I'm not 100% sure, but I suspect it's not a coincidence that the program stopped collecting data about a year later. The 2000-2010 dates refer to something else I mentioned, I could use some assistance identifying what your talking about.
Ok, we're now on arsenic. I didn't know about the exponential relationship. However, it makes sense. Those that are exposed to tiny amounts of arsenic don't need medical attention. Those who are exposed to large amounts, do require attention. More attention means bigger numbers. That's a problem with epidemiological research.
That's a nice overview of the arsenic situation. However, there's no mention of exponential cancer incidence with increased exposure.
Except when they're wrong. It's really difficult to determine when something is safe. It only takes one odd incident or study to declare something unsafe. Millions of people could be ingesting arsenic at the FDA/EPA levels, and not develop cancers above the historical norm. Yet a small number of individuals develop cancer, who happen to be living in an area where there is arsenic in the water, and the activist will march to have the safe levels lowered again. It will never end until we hit zero arsenic. I suspect when we hit zero there will still be cancer cases.
Interesting logic. Since CalEPA, US EPA, and US FDA don't agree with the EWG numbers, they must also be screwing up cleaning up the water from VoC's. Make one alleged mistake, and everything else they do must also be a mistake.
As you might suspect from my initial rant, I've been moderately involved in local water issues for about 40 years. At this time, I'm working on some problems surrounding the installation of a 125,000 gallon water tank about 300ft from my house. The issues are not with the water or water delivery. They're about traffic, parking, equipment staging, and access during the 1 year long construction. Also, some really odd numbers on water pump noise after completion.
Incidentally, I drink water from the tap without any additional filtering. The only exceptions are during the first rains, where all the animal dropping get washed into the river, when the pipes are flushed, and when I measure that there's too much or too little chlorine in the water. When I had my office in Santa Cruz, I used to bring gallon jugs of tap water to the office for tea, coffee, or soup. Ben Lomond water is tastes great.
What you did was post a link to a worthless article on water contamination in a fire zone, by an author who didn't do his homework, full of misleading information, delivered in an alarmist manner, and by coincidence was about where I happen to live. You also implied that because parts of California were having problems, the rest of the nation is doomed to the same fate. You didn't bother indicating why you posted the article to an electronic design newsgroup and why it was so important that we should read it.
I still don't understand why you repeatedly post off topic environmental rubbish S.E.D.? If you were so concerned about the environment and perhaps politics, why don't you post it to newsgroups, forums, or mailing lists where there are others that share your concern and may have more to offer than electronic designers? You would get all the attention you could possibly want from your peers and from those of similar political persuasion.
Repeating again... In the future, please resist the temptation to post out of date alarmist rubbish to an unrelated newsgroup. Thanks.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Fred is a well-known troll. Notice that few others respond to his posts.
Don't feed the trolls.
-- Science teaches us to trust. - sw
Automatic gain control of fear? Is that some kind of SanFrancisco phenomenon?
Seriously, though, the Flint water situation (and a few instances where my bread machine didn't perform normally) make water quality a very suitable topic for doubt nowadays. Maybe in a decade, the EPA and municipal water authorities will have credibility, but not so much just yet.
We don't need fear, we need potable water. Larkin syndrome makes a complicated model, drop the 'fear' fixation and keep it simple.
You'll notice that I rarely post anything these days. Most of my past postings were only marginally related to electronic design. However, when Fred posted a misleading article about a topic which I am personally involved and knowledgeable, I couldn't resist informing him of his grievous misdeeds, unload a few accumulated frustrations, and offer a few personal suggestions on how he might salvage what's left of his image and reputation. Once I get started, I find it difficult to stop.
Ok, you're right. Time to end this waste of everyone's time. Thanks for the reminder.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
That Marian guy probably uses bottled water to wash his car and hose down his sidewalk.
-- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc Science teaches us to doubt. Claude Bernard
On Saturday, November 14, 2020 at 3:50:31 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wr ote:
e VOC remediation too.
Rule number one is don't waste your time reading the stuff published by the regulatory agencies, it's mostly politically tainted trash. The EPA is def initely out of the question, and they're not a primary source of informatio n anyway.
Wonderful. Speaking of which, the application of chlorine is a balancing ac t, which is mostly failed nationwide. It produces chemical by-product that is also carcinogenic, and EWG has documented these as being 50x the recomme nded safe level almost nationwide.
Seeing as how AD has entire product line dedicated to water quality samplin g analysis, the post is in fact electronics related.
That's the beauty of the Facebook block. You don't have any choice in the m atter. You're blocked from seeing any content from the person who blocks yo u. It will be a million years before some nerd creation newsgroup shit show could begin to do anything as intelligent.
Non-electronic drivel:
[Q] How do you tell the difference between locals and visitors? [A] The visitors have clean cars and shoes. The locals cars and shoes are covered with ash.That was the situation for much of late August through mid October. Washing cars was somewhat futile because much of the ash was hung up in the trees. Despite some strong winds and two light rains, it continues to fall. The ash is hydrophobic (doesn't mix well with water) and is therefore not easily washed off of cars with just water. Pressure washing with a soapy spray works. Hand washing with a sponge or rag scratches the paint.
During the fire, SLV water storage and distribution was severely impacted by the loss of 4.5 million gallons of water from melted pipes and tanks. That was about half of the total storage capacity for the district. Rather than let the benzene contaminated water flow through the distribution pipes, it was dumped onto the ground. Actually, there was little choice as 7.5 miles of HDPE distribution pipes were melted by the fire. That saved the distribution system from contamination, but caused a short term water shortage. For a time, the district was providing free bottled water for residents who were without safe water. I suppose it's possible that some residents washed their vehicles with bottled water, but I doubt it.
More non-electronic drivel: For me, the ash problem persisted in an odd way. I managed to give myself an alkali burn on all of my finger tips. I had stupidly left several windows open when we evacuated during the CZU fire. Upon my return, there was some ash in the house, which I cleaned up with a vacuum cleaner. At this time, I was closing down my office in Santa Cruz and dragging all the boxes home. Many of the boxes were outside on the deck and covered with ash. For the last month, I've been furiously moving these boxes into the house for storage before the rains arrived. I wasn't wearing gloves and picked up some of the ash from the bottom of the boxes while carrying them. Salty sweat combined with wood ash, produces sodium hydroxide (NaOH) also known as caustic soda or lye. A few days of that and all my finger tips became red and slightly swollen. The lye and swelling also erased my fingerprints to the point where my smartphone fingerprint reader would not recognize them. Once I figured out what happened, washing my hands with a mild acid (vinegar) to clean out the pores fixed the problem. Lesson learned - wear gloves.
-- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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