Re: Actual price/gallon for 12% Hasa Pool Chlorine (for SMS and the Silicon Valley)

trader_4 wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 06:55:11 -0700:

Let's continue the math. A gallon by your calculations costs $3.32. > It has 12% chlorine. A gallon weighes about 8.3 lbs, so you're getting > 1 lb of chlorine for $3.32.

My fault. I should have provided more details about the percentage.

This lousy issue of % Available Chlorine vs. Trade % (volume % Available Chlorine) vs. % of product (weight % of product) is extremely confusing to me; but, it makes a huge difference in the calculations of cost for chlorine! Specifically, bleach percentages are listed by weight, such that 6% bleach is 6% by weight, or 5.7% available chlorine. However, the HASA liquid chlorine is listed by trade percentage, so 12.5% trade chlorine is 11.6% available chlorine.

In both cases the actual strength varies with age where the turnover in the HASA chlorine is extremely fast (they go through a few pallets a day!) while the turnover in bleach is dismal by way of comparison (however, the

*lower* the percentage of chlorine, the longer it lasts (which seems counter intuitive, to me, but I have confirmed this will phone calls to Clorox folks).

Given the percentage confusion above, we can then add solid equations, to finally get these generic equations for calculating the true cost of sanitizing chlorine for all three types:

a) liquid chlorine: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 1/10.8% by wt available chlorine

b) liquid bleach: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.0pounds x 1/5.7% by wt available chlorine

c) solids: $cost/pound x 1/??% by wt available chlorine, as listed on the container

(assume 36% if it's not listed, which is what I've found out by calling

*every* manufacturer who didn't list the percentage! They're trying to hide a lousy number every time!).
Reply to
DannyD.
Loading thread data ...

trader_4 wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 06:55:11 -0700:

You bring up a very good point about the stabilizer!

Every year I empty my pool (a bit under 40K gallons) and fill it back up again, so, I have to add the cyanuric acid (CYA) stabilizer.

I used to add about 15 pounds of the *granules* to bring up the CYA from

0ppm to about 50ppm (we have a *lot* of sun out here), but this year I added 15 pounds of the CYA *powder* which is *very easy* to do once you know how!

I'll never use the granules ever again.

The powder is available from *any* pool store that buys liquid chlorine from HASA (which is common out here in California), and they sell it in any desired amount at the *same price* as they sell the CYA granules.

So, in a single sitting (about an hour), I can bring up a pool from zero PPM to 50ppm CYA, so that the liquid chlorine has a chance of lasting in this perennial sunlight.

As you noted, all the solid pucks and most of the "shock" powders also contain CYA, and I also use them (when appropriate, e.g., when I go on vacation), so, there is nothing wrong with the "slow" method either.

One caution though is that it takes *technique* to distribute the CYA powder, because it won't work in a sock like the granules do, but, once you know the technique, it's even easier than using CYA granules, and certainly far cheaper than the so-called "liquid CYA" you can buy in the pool stores.

Reply to
DannyD.

DannyD. wrote, on Tue, 24 Jun 2014 20:32:18 +0000:

I have used all three types of chlorine:

formatting link

Assuming the HASA liquid chlorine averaged $3.59/gallon after all the value-pack coupon and buy-11-get-one-free complicating shenanigans:

The equation for liquid chlorine is: $cost/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 1/10.8% by wt available chlorine

So that's: $3.59/gallon x 1gallon/9.7pounds x 100/10.8 = $3.43/pound of available Cl

By way of liquid chlorine local (Silicon Valley) comparison: Home Depot = $6.86/2 gallons * 1gal/9.7 pounds * 100pounds/10.8 pounds = $3.27/pound of available Cl Lowes = $6.90/2 gallons * 1gal/9.7 pounds * 100pounds/10.8 pounds = $3.29/pound of available Cl Leslie = $10.49/2 gallons * 1gal/9.7 pounds * 100pounds/10.8 pounds = $5.01/pound of available Cl

Comparing the Dichlor, we get: Leslies = $122/40 pounds * 100/55 pounds = $5.55/pound of available Cl Lowes = $70/22.5 pounds * 100/56 pounds = $5.56/pound of available Cl Home Depot = $80/22.5 pounds * 100/56 pounds = $6.35/pound of available Cl Costco = $55/24 pounds * 100/36 = $6.37/pound of available Cl

For Trichlor, we get: Home Depot = $75/37.5 pounds * 100/90 pounds = $2.22/pound of available Cl Costco = 84.79/40 pounds * 100/84.65 pounds = $2.50/pound of available Cl Lowes $75/35 pounds * 100/85 pounds = $2.52/pound of available Cl[/b] Leslies = $80/35 pounds * 100/90 pounds = $2.54/pound of available Cl

For Calcium hypochlorite, we get: Leslies = $107.19/25 pounds * 100/73 pounds = $5.87/pound of available Cl

So, the best price for available chlorine (excluding the fact it raises the CYA), seems to be the Home Depot Trichlor, or (if you don't want to raise CYA), the Home Depot liquid chlorine (assuming it's fresh).

Reply to
DannyD.

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 13:35:56 +0000:

BTW, adding the special CYA *powder* is necessary under circumstances when you can't run the equipment after having refilled the pool (due to water levels taking weeks to rise given slow well refilling) and given a very high sun load (California).

To be sure, adding the *powder* is easy, but all normal methods will fail miserably, because once the powder gets wet, it *instantly* turns into a solid brick! (I've never seen anything "set" so fast!)

Bearing in mind that CYA powder will do the same thing in your lungs, if it ever gets that far, after a few failed experiments, I was able devise a CYA powder distribution method that *easily* brings a pool from 0 ppm CYA to about 40 ppm in a single sitting, with *no visible CYA residue*.

Here's a picture of the iso cyanuric acid powder:

formatting link

Here's a picture of my starting point:

formatting link

The first thing I did was sift the powder into a 5-gallon bucket of water:

formatting link

If I didn't swish the water, and just let the CYA settle, this is what happened at the bottom of the bucket:

formatting link

So, I learned to swish the water while shaking the powder over the skimmer net into the bucket of water.

formatting link

Then I poured the water into another bucket:

formatting link

And, as I poured, I filtering out any sediment with a skimmer net:

formatting link

Over time, I learned, the more I swished, the less sediment I filtered:

formatting link

Until I got to a point where four or five 8-ounce cups of the powder would easily go into a five-gallon bucket of water:

formatting link

Then, I simply poured the suspended-particle CYA "milk" slurry into the pool:

formatting link

The lovely clouds of suspended CYA particles in the water were a beautiful sight to see (these clouds are *in* the water!):

formatting link

By way of failed experimentation, simply shaking the CYA powder over the pool with a skimmer net fails if there is any wind, as the powder blows away; and it fails the moment you accidently get the powder wet (which turns it into an instant brick)

formatting link

And, even if you're successful at shaking the powder over the pool on a calm day, the powder floats on the top of the water like an island, due to its propensity to form clumps:

formatting link

But, I'm happy to report that the double-bucket swishing filter method works just fine, and it's very easy and satisfying to do!

formatting link

Here is another picture of the lovely cloud of CYA dispersing throughout the pool, with each CYA particle surrounded by water:

formatting link

IMHO, this is the easiest, cheapest way, to add CYA to your pool if you recently refilled it, and if you have a huge sun load, like I do (which will murder you in chlorine costs otherwise):

formatting link

Reply to
DannyD.

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 08:06:58 -0700:

I understood everything you imply, as I am familiar with the increasing ratio of CYA to target free chlorine level as per this common table:

(Stabilizer) (Minimum FC) (Target FC) (Shock FC)

20 2 3 10 30 2 4 12 40 3 5 16 50 4 6 20 60 5 7 24 70 5 8 28 80 6 9 31 90 7 10 35 100 7 12 39 etc.

I actually only have about 50 ppm CYA, even with adding the powder, which means I need to target Free Chlorine at 6 ppm.

I realize it's not often stated at the pool store, but, the chlorine number is wholly useless without the associated CYA value.

For example, with your 2ppm of free chlorine, if you had a 40 ppm CYA, you'd already be below the minimum, and far below the target chlorine levels for your pool (based on my read of the chart above).

I can only hope, for your sake, that your CYA is at or below 30ppm, which, for a sunny area out here, would not be enough stabilizer.

You haven't seen "my" pool! :)

Seriously though, I'm welcome and open to ideas, as I can't seem to keep chlorine in this pool, even though the biological load is nearly zero (nobody even swims in it lately).

Reply to
DannyD.

"DannyD." wrote in news:lofd4a$b5k$ snipped-for-privacy@news.albasani.net:

Can you post some pics of the labels of the chlorine that you are using?

Reply to
Zaky Waky

Zaky Waky wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 21:30:36 +0000:

Here is a picture of the chlorine "I" am using (Costco tablets & HASA liquid):

formatting link

But, here is a more complete explanation of what *you* might find on the labels:

  1. Liquid chlorine at 12.25% trade percentage available chlorine by volume (aka 10.78% available chlorine by weight, aka 11.31% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite): $cost/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.7pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/10.78 pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine
  2. Bleach at 6% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite (aka 6.17% trade % available chlorine by volume, aka 5.71% available chlorine by weight): $cost/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.0pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/5.71 pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine
  3. Bleach at 8.25% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite (aka 9.08% trade % available chlorine by volume, aka 7.86% available chlorine by weight): $cost/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.0pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/7.86 pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine
  4. Solids & powders (available chlorine is as listed on the package): $cost/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/?? pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine

Where the demominator for 99% by weight Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione, anhydrous, is 64. And, where the denominator for 99% by weight Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione Dihydrate is 55 (which is the same chemical as Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione, typically 85% by wt & 14% water, available chlorine 55%). But, the denominator can be as low as 36 for certain formulations (e.g., Costco item #175121, aqua chem Shock Plus 4 in 1 pool shock 24 pack, EPA REG No 67262-27 telephone 800-252-7665).

For trichlor aka trichloroisocyanuric acid or richloro-s-triazinetrione, the available chlorine varies by weight as listed on the package): a. Home Depot & Leslie's Pool 99% trichlor is listed as 90% available chlorine. b. Lowes 95% trichlor is listed as 85% available chlorine. c. Costco 94.05% trichlor is listed as 84.65% available chlorine.

Note: Sometimes, Dichlor Dihydrate available chlorine is shown as 56% (even though 100% pure product would be 55.4% and 99% pure product would be 54.8%), possibly because there may be some anhydrous Dichlor mixed in with the Dichlor Dihydrate (manufacturing processes are not perfect). Also, most confusing, is that sometimes they leave out the "dihydrate" in the ingredients even though it is really there. The easiest way to tell is by looking at the % available chlorine.

Reply to
DannyD.

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:21:36 -0700:

While it stands to logic in that the more stabilizer you have, the more free chlorine you need to maintain its effectiveness, I didn't make that table up.

The original Chlorine/CYA "Best Guess" chart was developed by Ben Powell. Richard Falk had refined and expanded on that original to produce the Chlorine/CYA Chart by Chem Geek as described here:

formatting link

The point is that most people don't even realize that the free chlorine that they need depends on the existing CYA level that they have!

Reply to
DannyD.

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:21:36 -0700:

Exactly.

It's a bit too complicated for me to fully understand, but, it's all summarized in this chart:

formatting link

Which is explained here:

formatting link

End result?

The sanitizing goal is *not* a particular free chlorine level! It's a particular free chlorine level that offsets whatever your CYA level is.

Reply to
DannyD.

trader_4 wrote, on Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:21:36 -0700:

I don't disagree.

Take, for example, the pool-store recommendations to reduce phosphates to prevent algal growth.

Sure, algae need phosphates, but, free chlorine, in and of itself, kills algae.

On the other hand, I did try to source industrial lanthanum chloride salt crystals (active ingredient in Orenda PR-10000), but, failed.

So, if anyone here can get a good price on industrial grade lanthanum chloride, you can make a killing on the pool stores!

Reply to
DannyD.

"DannyD." wrote in news:lofn79$b5k$ snipped-for-privacy@news.albasani.net:

Thanks.

Reply to
Zaky Waky

Zaky Waky wrote, on Thu, 26 Jun 2014 07:36:37 +0000:

I made a slight typo on the HASA liquid chlorine; it's 12.5%, not 12.25%, but the equation is otherwise correct (AFAIK).

Reply to
DannyD.

trader_4 wrote, on Thu, 26 Jun 2014 05:31:48 -0700:

Hi trader_4,

I understand what you're saying, so, we need to look at this closely, scientifically, and logically.

Both you and I can understand the *logic* of the CYA-to-chlorine argument. It's why pool stores test CYA in the first place.

The higher the CYA, the less effective any one level of chlorine is. We all know that, so, at least the "inherent" logic is underlying the charts.

But is it science?

This technical bulletin lists a few scientific references:

formatting link

Namely, the following which, the bulletin says, conclude: "cya inhibits chlorine's ability to kill bacteria". a) American Journal of Public Health, October 1965, Anderson b) Applied microbiology, May 1967, Fitzgerald

Yet, we are saying most "official" recommendations don't mention the CYA level, right?

Here's an 'advisory', that says, essentially, the same thing:

formatting link

So, maybe together, we can flesh this out, to understand why most official chlorine recommendations don't seem to take into account the CYA levels.

One potential "error" in our assumptions is that an *indoor* pool probably doesn't have *any* CYA; so, any "official" recommendation for chlorine levels in an indoor pool wouldn't be pertinent.

Another potential complicating factor is that, for outdoor pools, the CYA levels might be "assumed". I don't know, as we'd have to look at each official recommendation to be sure.

This post is getting long, so let me google for "official"

*outdoor* pool chlorine recommendations to see what I can dig up to support or disprove the hypothesis.
Reply to
DannyD.

UPDATE: Here is the final summary of the cost equations, to date ...

Fact Sheet on Cyanuric Acid and Stabilized Chlorine Products

  1. Liquid chlorine at 12.5% trade percentage available chlorine by volume (aka 10.78% available chlorine by weight) (aka 11.31% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.7pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/10.78 pounds available chlorine

  1. Bleach at 8.25% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite (aka 9.08% trade % available chlorine by volume) (aka 7.86% available chlorine by weight): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.0pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/7.86 pounds available chlorine

  2. Bleach at 6% weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite (aka 6.17% trade % available chlorine by volume) (aka 5.71% available chlorine by weight): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/gallon liquid x 1gallon liquid/9.0pounds liquid x 100 pounds liquid/5.71 pounds available chlorine = price per pound of available chlorine

  1. Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione, anhydrous at 99% by weight (available chlorine is 64% by weight, or as listed on the package): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/64 pounds available chlorine

  2. Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione dihydrate at 99% by weight (available chlorine is 55% by weight, or as listed on the package): price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/55 pounds available chlorine

Note: This is sometimes listed as Sodium Dichloro-s-Triazinetrione, typically 85% by weight with 14% locked up as water, but the available chlorine is still 55%)

  1. Trichlor from Home Depot & Leslie's Pool at 99% by weight (aka trichloroisocyanuric acid, listed at 90% available chlorine) price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/90 pounds available chlorine

  1. Trichlor from Costco & Lowes at 95% by weight (aka trichloroisocyanuric acid, listed at 85% available chlorine) price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/85 pounds available chlorine

  2. Shock Plus 4 in 1 pool shock, Aqua Chem Costco item #175121, 24 pack (where available chlorine is 35.6%, confirmed by phone 800-252-7665 and 800-859-7946 technical support for 'product code' 22112AQU). price per pound of available chlorine = $price/pound solid x 100 pounds solid/35.6 pounds available chlorine ================================================ ================================================ Note1: The Costco #175121 product is labeled EPA REG No 67262-27, Here is the EPA lookup for that product:
    formatting link
    According to that page, the product is 58.2% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione. So compared to Dichlor dihydrate, which is 85% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione (i.e. not including the dihydrate), the Costco product is 68.5% of what you would get with a normal Dichlor dihydrate product.

This 68.5% is purity relative to 99% pure Dichlor Dihydrate product, NOT an absolute % Available Chlorine. The % Available Chlorine of 100% pure Dichlor Dihydrate is 55.4% while the typical 99% pure product is

54.9% (i.e. 55%). 0.99*55.4%*0.685 = 37.6% so it's close to the 35.6% the company quotes when you call them in Georgia.

------------------------------------------------ Note2: Sometimes, Dichlor Dihydrate available chlorine is shown as 56% (even though 100% pure product would be 55.4% and 99% pure product would be 54.8%), possibly because there may be some anhydrous Dichlor mixed in with the Dichlor Dihydrate (manufacturing processes are not perfect). Also, most confusing, is that sometimes they leave out the "dihydrate" in the ingredients even though it is really there. The easiest way to tell is by looking at the % available chlorine.

------------------------------------------------ Note3: Although the ingredients may say "Sodium Hypochlorite" at

12.5% on a bottle of chlorinating liquid, which would normally imply that to be the weight percent of sodium hypochlorite; however, in practice, it's the Trade % that is listed ast 12.5% on the bottle of liquid chlorine. It's very confusing and really hard to know the truth. Also, higher chlorine levels degrade faster, which is why most don't worry much about it. Look at this link for a product specification for "12.5 Trade Percent Available Chlorine" chlorinating liquid with 10.55 - 10.8 Weight % Available Chlorine and 11.0 - 11.3 Weight % Sodium Hypochlorite.
formatting link

------------------------------------------------

Reply to
DannyD.

AWESOME !!

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/actual-price-gallon-for-12-hasa-pool-chlorine-for-sms-and-799652-.htm
Reply to
Guest

From 2014!

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Reply to
Peter W.

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.