In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is there a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms cross-over, clipping, phasing etc ? I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone, presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.
-- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
:In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is there :a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms cross-over, :clipping, phasing etc ? :I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone, :presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal.
what is a "record cartridge"?
there
cross-over,
!960s vinyl/shellac? record deck cartridge , before piezo days anyway, so damp gets into the crystal and it disintegrates. Not drilled out the rivet to inspect as owner may want the original but I suspect crystal is delaminating and/or parts turning to paste, the remnant functional parts resonating in use
-- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
Don't know if isolated if it's a distortion, as such. Just a limited frequency response caused by the mechanical failure.
It could be coupled with a distortion (say by resonance as your given speaker example) but alone could have the effect of a tweeter disabled in a two-way speaker cabinet - or both drivers disabled and you are listening to the full bandwidth programme source though the system's subwoofer amp and driver.
Now that, *does* sound rather muddy....
-- Adrian C
there
cross-over,
An element of that , loss of full tonal range, that absentee fraction modulated by a few Hz or so perhaps. I have a test CD with separate channels of sine of various frequencies but no similar vinyl disc to play and observe on a scope.
-- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
The muddy sound you're describing could be composed of a number of different types of distortion. Broadly speaking, you're probably hearing both linear and non-linear distortion mechanisms.
Linear distortion (or so I've heard it called) would be a change in the cartridge's frequency response... I believe that this could happen if the cantilever suspension were to become stiff with age (e.g. if it's rubber and has been affected by atmospheric ozone). If the edges of the stylus are worn, the stylus might no longer be able to trace out the narrower (high-frequency) parts of the groove, and could sound dull and muddy.
Nonlinear distortion could result from a worn or damaged stylus, from sagging of the cantilever within its suspension, perhaps from suspension stiffening, or from any sort of physical damage within the cartridge. You'd observe this sort of distortion as the creation of new (unwanted) frequencies within the cartridge's output... e.g. harmonic distortion or intermodulation distortion (or, most likely, both at the same time depending on the frequency content of the music you are playing).
You might also run into "tracing distortion", where the cartridge sounds OK when playing quiet passages but sound horrible (gritty, harsh, spitty) when playing loud passages. This happens when the stylus can no longer stay in contact with the walls of the record groove, and starts bouncing around in the groove... an effect which can cause immediate physical damage to the record! You can think of this as a sort of mechanical clipping, if you like.
--
Dave Platt AE6EO
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Mad idea, how about gently dropping the stylus on the cone edge of a small speaker connected to a signal generator, with another more modern ceramic cartridge stylus mounted at a similar postion further along the ridge? You could then carefully wind the drive and frequency up and get a comparative difference of output level between the two.
Or if not being asked by the owner to persue an exact replacement*, then transfer the guts of the cartidge inside.
-- Adrian C
:> :In present case due to disintegrating 40 yearold record cartridge. Is :there :> :a more technical name for this sort of distortion like the terms :cross-over, :> :clipping, phasing etc ? :> :I've heard similar muddy sound with a collapsing loudspeaker cone, :> :presumably due to a resonance that modulates the wanted signal. :>
:>
:> what is a "record cartridge"? : :!960s vinyl/shellac? record deck cartridge , before piezo days anyway, so :damp gets into the crystal and it disintegrates. Not drilled out the rivet :to inspect as owner may want the original but I suspect crystal is :delaminating and/or parts turning to paste, the remnant functional parts :resonating in use
So you meant to say a "phono cartridge" intended for playing back vinyl recordings. I have never heard a phono cartidge referred to as a "record cartridge" - ever.
As you say, older crystal and ceramic cartridges failed due to disintegration of the piezo element. But I think they also became "muddy" sounding when the pliant mounting blocks lost their resilience.
there
cross-over,
Yes you never know until you burrow inside. Ground down the rivet of this BSR X3M piezo element phono cartridge, about 1970. The blue rubbery suspension element breaking down "doll's disease" fashion or whatever the chemical process is. The same process that makes "rubber" grommets melt the hard plastic of drawered storage cabinets. Anyway the surrounding hard plastic "melting" and vinegar/plasticizer or whatever interfering with the contact between piezo foil tails and the contacts leading out, or the goo having a damping effect or both.
-- Diverse Devices, Southampton, England electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
That's because you call it a phonograph record and we call it a gramophone record.
The archaic (but still used) term for playback on radio and live production is 'Grams' even tho it`s likely to be tape or these days cd in origin.
Ron
:Ross Herbert wrote: : :> :> So you meant to say a "phono cartridge" intended for playing back vinyl :> recordings. I have never heard a phono cartidge referred to as a "record :> cartridge" - ever. : :That's because you call it a phonograph record and we call it a :gramophone record. : :The archaic (but still used) term for playback on radio and live :production is 'Grams' even tho it`s likely to be tape or these days cd :in origin. : : : :Ron
Well Ron, for your information I'm Australian, and therefore my orientation is more with British terminology than American - although I am familiar with both.
The use of the term "gramophone record" has not been around since the 1950's to my recollection, and in Australia we dispensed with the term "gramophone" when referring to vinyl discs even before this. We referred to them simply as "records".
I have never heard the term "Grams" used anywhere in conjunction with radio or live production. Also, these days (actually, since the early 90's), many radio broadcasters began moving over to digital storage rather than using tape and I think they even transferred music to digital storage and retrieval systems. One such system was designed by the ABC in Australia - known as D-CART.
In the late 90's ABC designed D-Radio, a digital system which pulls all the functions of modern radio production and broadcasting together.
: :In the late 90's ABC designed D-Radio, a digital system which pulls all the :functions of modern radio production and broadcasting together.
I did notice your email addy.
Okee dokee, my mistake, yes it`s the leftpodians who call it a phonograph record. Probably the Edison connection.
We also always just called them records, and the device used to play them, a record player, the crystal/ceramic/magnetic part was known as a pickup cartridge.
We didnt call records vinyl till probably sometime in the 70`s as I recall. I might still have a few BSR and ACOS cartridges kicking around somewhere
Maybe not in Australia, but certainly here and used by the BBC if not now, until recently. It`s obviously a throwback to the early days of broadcast, but one which has stuck, like using FX for effects returns. I still write the word Grams on the mixer strip where the CD and MD return are. ( and now the mp3 player )
Ron
On 2/1/2009 12:11 PM Ron spake thus:
both.
Correction--we just call them "records". The term "phonograph" hasn't been part of ordinary language here (US) since the 1950s.
to
Here, that's always just been called a "cartridge" (the "phonograph" part being implicit) for as long as I can remember. Nobody here ever said "pickup cartridge". The things *might* have been identified as "phono" or "phonograph" cartridges in catalogs, but again not in common parlance.
-- Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is "If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me". - lifted from sci.electronics.repair
I wonder where that expression came from, most mud is usually very quiet :)
Phil
I don't BELIEVE it !
Graham
Why the HELL would you want to examine the inside of an ultra cheap 40 y.o. crystal / ceramic cartridge that's probably never seen a new needle in its entire life ?
They ALL sounded shit btw.
Graham
You certainly would have in the BBC !
Graham
An old Shure box didn't help either.
It says high trackability stereo dynetic cartridge.
Graham
On 2/2/2009 9:15 PM Eeyore spake thus:
Yeah, but that's pure marketing-speak. I'll bet they had an interesting explanation of what "dynetic" meant ...
I remember Shure well. Grew up where they used to be (Evanston, Ill., just north of Chicago). 222 Hartrey Ave.
-- Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is "If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me". - lifted from sci.electronics.repair
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