Ron, on the timer sequence diagram, it shows the pre-wash, wash, rinse, extra rinse, spin, dry and stop events, but not the drain event. If it's a timed event, I would expect that on the event sequence. Or unless it's implied/built-in under the wash and rinse events??
R> The drain cycles are just a timed event once the pressure switch opens.
As far as I know, any problem in the drain/heat/temp sensing department would prolong the cycle times not shorten them. Unfortunately, the only real way to prove a timer is to replace it with a known good one, which would appear to be out of the question in your case.
I spent over 20 years repairing laundry appliances for a living, it`s been about 4 years since I gave up, folks these days tend to be cajoled into buying an extended warranty with their new machines in exchange for a very low ticket price. Here, washing machines, like most home appliances are so cheap, it doesn`t make sense to invest money in any machine over five years old. The microwave oven repairing side to my business stopped almost overnight when local supermarkets started selling ovens for £39.99. Similarly with VCR`s at £29.99!
[1] some machines switch the drain pump on and off during the final spin, presumably to prevent some kind of cavitation or maintain enough water in the sump hose to keep the pump draining effectivelyRon(UK)
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Over here top loaders are cheap, starting at around $200 but front loaders still command quite a premium. They start at about $600 and go up from there. An imported brand is usually around $1000+ so it's well worth repairing.
How odd, exactly the opposite here, tho these days top loaders are pretty rare , top loaders are less economical and as most UK households have their washer in the kitchen it has to fit under a worktop. The only decent top loader available in the UK was the Hotpoint which to the best of my knowledge isnt made anymore, and they cheapened that so much it went from a super machine into an unrelaible nightmare.
Our throwaway society has really hammered the repair industry, even secondhand stores are closing, I used to make a substantial proportion of my income servicing and repairing items for those guys. These days one has to specialise, I concentrate on professional sound equipment.
Ron(UK)
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Ron,
What is your repair experience with the system board (called power card on the Brandt BR1000) where the cycling motor modules, speed potent module, extra rinse module all converge, on a washing machine? Have you needed to replace it? Wonder if the 50hz/60hz issue would affect the electronics.
Ron(UK) wrote: On that type of timer, the timer motor is usually wired through a pair
Top loaders are simple, so they're cheaper to produce and also less efficient so they cost more to operate. Probably only more expensive to buy over there because they're imported. Honestly I'm not sure why anyone would want one, after owning a front loader for even a relatively short time I can tell it's vastly superior, much quieter, holds more laundry, uses less detergent and water, and the clothes come out cleaner and less tangled. They do seem to be gaining popularity so obviously I'm not the only one who's noticed that.
They are called modules here, and generally control just the main motor speed, If the machine uses a brush type motor, it`s a simple triac chopper circuit, getting feedback from a tacho generator on the rear of the motor. Some induction motors are also controlled this way. Machines with a solid state timer - so called computer washers - often have the triacs on the board to control the water valves and pump, and relays for the motor direction and heater circuit and a triac to operate the heat pause coil on the timer (I`m thinking Hotpoint here).
They are generally pretty reliable, off the top of my head I recall most faults being due to either solder cracks due to vibration or heater relay contacts burnt. if the heat pause triac went leaky the coil would buzz and the machine either wouldn`t pause while the water heated or would stick at that point. If the motor control triac failed the machine would spin uncontrollably on all settings where the motor should be turning.
I guess 60hz could affect a microprocessor controlled machine, I`m not really sure as the problem doesn't often come up.
Ron (UK)
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Heater circuit? Do they not just take in hot water from the central tank? Seems odd to use expensive resistance heat to warm water when most houses have cheaper (though not nearly as much so as it used to be) gas hot water, or is natural gas expensive enough there to justify electric?
Well Hotpoint top loaders weren't so simple, there`s more engineering in them (gearbox, agitator drive, clutch, much tougher bearings and seals etc) and they were British made. People tended to be very attached to their top loaders as they take a massive load compared to a front loader, and at one time were very reliable. The down side - as you say- is that they used a huge quantity of water and juice to heat it and wouldn`t go under a work top. As time went on, the machines got constructionally flimsier and more mechanically delicate, and individual parts for major components like the gearbox were no longer avaiable, the mabufacturers supplying only a complete power unit.
I used to hate working on them, but not as much as I hated Speed Queens!
Ron(UK)
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
They used to be hot and cold, but the domestic water isn`t hot enough for washing without a boost from the machines element Surprisingly most machines here are cold fill only these days. they take in so little water on the wash program, the manufacturers claim it`s more economical to heat it in the machine. Thats also the reason why modern machines take so long compared to how they use to be.
Gas is a lot less expensive than electrikery when it comes to water heating.
Ron(UK)
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
I wonder if they were any different than the HotPoint top loaders here? There's three basic designs I run into, GE/HotPoint with the centrifugal clutch driven water pump, belt drive Whirlpool with a wig-wag used to shift the transmission, and the modern direct drive Whirlpool with a rubber coupler between the motor and transmission rather than a belt. Most top load washing machines are one of those three internally regardless of the brand slapped on the outside and not much has changed, you can still get parts for a 30 year old machine in most cases.
The front load stuff is all different though, the early machines from the 70's were built much more like a standard domestic top loader using a large induction motor and transmission with belts, the newer ones are much more European and use a DC or brushless motor with a belt drive directly to the drum. The Neptune I picked up recently uses a 3 phase motor of some sort, there was nothing wrong with the motor itself so I didn't dig into it so I'm not sure if it's permanent magnet like a brushless motor or if it's an AC induction motor but I suspect the former. I do know that the capacity of this washer is enormous, it fits easily as much as my extra large Whirlpool top loader I had before and with no agitator in the middle it's a lot easier to cram big stuff like my bedspread in there. The thing I don't like about it however is it has the control panel along the back and the detergent hopper on the top so you lose one of the big advantages of a conventional front loader of being able to have a shelf or counter over it but the price was right ($0) so I can't really complain too much.
Here is the email response I received from Brandt:
of the >programmer is ordered by the electronic chart. The duration between two power supplies >of the micro engine depends on many parameters and is not systematically 1 minute.
Ron, the new and more advanced machine these days, Are their timer movements and duration controlled entirely by a microprocessor and as a result sometimes it might take a minute to move a notch and other times it might take 5 minutes? In other words, would a notch in a cotton wash function take longer to move as opposed to a notch in a wool wash function? Or in your experience, a notch increment is constant during a timed event?
By the way, doesn't Brandt sell their machines in UK? My machine is French-made, but not particularly for the French market.
The Hotpoint top loader I refer to has a cenfigugal clutch below the (induction) motor to drive the gearbox (power unit) via a belt, and the pump is directly above the motor driven via a flexible rubberised canvas coupling known to repairmen as the 'Chinese lantern' because of it`s shape. The top of the motor has a large fan/umbrella to deflect water that inevitably leaks from the pump.
The Whilpool (Phillips) machines were French and had the drum mounted much like a front loader except you put the washing in from above via a trapdoor in the drum. Transmission is/was via a bakelite variable centrigugal drive using a pair of tapered pulleys and 3 ballbearings. As the motor speed increases the two pulleys are forced together by the ball bearings which increases the diameter. The later of these machines used a low voltage permanent magnet motor (the same motor as in the Sinclair C5!) the voltage being dropped by the heating element. Horrible machines to work on.
Ron
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
In a microprocessor controlled machine there isn`t a mechanical timer - or I havent seen such a machine if there is. All the functions are managed by the micro in combination with the power board.
As far as moving on a notch as you put it, in a normal mechanical timer, the longer programs just have more notches than the short programs and the heating cycle is longer for higher temps.
The pdf circuit diagram Sam posted appears to be unavailable now, are you saying your machine has a microprocessor board somewhere? in which case why would it have a typical crouzet type timer... Is it that you are confusing the power module with a control module (microprocessor board)?
I`m about five years out of whack with washing machines now as the repair trade here has just about vanished, so there may well be new developements I,m not aware of.
Ron(UK)
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Sorry, I must have deleted it by mistake. I'll try to get it back.
A photo of the "power card" is at:
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ:
Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
Schematic is now back at:
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ:
Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
The Brandt machine I have is of such design, a top-loader tumbler. I chose this design over the front-loading because it doesn't require me to bend when loading/unloading clothes.
Esther
Yep, that sounds identical to the US machine, they made a zillion of those sold under GE, Hotpoint, and a number of other brands, my grandma had one of that design that would be at least 40 years old now if she still had it. If you ever need parts for one, just about everything is available from
I suspect, looking at the power card photo, that same pcb is used for either mechanical or a microprocessor controlled machines. There`s some empty components spaces to the right of the heatsink which are probably triacs to control watervalves, pump, etc, on the micro machine. the motor control triac is just visible clipped to the left hand side of the heatsink - could be TR1. The relay could be either heating element control or motor direction, I would guess motor direction. The white plastic cased module is very typical of continental machines.
Looking once again at the pdf, I see that there`s a feed to the timer motor from the module, which is probably how the timer gets interupted during the heat pause phase. I cant see how a problem there would cause the machine to increment through at a faster than normal pace tho a shorted component might cause the timer motor to run all the time.
Ron
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs
It`s quite possible that the same machine is sold under several different brand names. I wonder if there`s anyway of crossreferencing machines from different manufacturers in the US.
Ron
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.