If there`s no solenoid, then it`s most probably that the timer itself is faulty. There was a common problem with some Hoover machines here (UK) where the timer would skip through the rinse cycle in minutes. The cause was the geneva drive in the timer (Crouzet) jamming.
Has the fault been apparent on the machine always since it was first used on 60 hz, or has it developed recently?
Ron(UK)
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
Ron, where is the geneva drive located? Inside the tiny motor encasement or between the cams? Is it accessible? Or would I need to replace the entire timer moto box? Are there any Crouzet distributors/retailers in the UK?
The fault has been there from the beginning. I never got to use the brand new machine!! Unfortunately, since it was imported and Brandt is not sold in the US, I have no service and technical support. The fact that the machine is brand new and faulty somehow does not quite jive in the realm of possibility. Oh, well...things happen.
Thanks for your help. Although I still have to go hunt for the component as it is at least seven years old now and probably has been discontinued, at least the puzzle is solved and I could rest partially in peace.
Sam, thanks for your assistance in the past few weeks and help post the schematics, last but not least, pointing me to this user group filled with knowledgeable people.
-- Joe Leikhim K4SAT "The RFI-EMI-GUY" "Follow The Money"
Also did you check the Quick Wash function? Maybe stuck in that mode?
**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:
-- Joe Leikhim K4SAT "The RFI-EMI-GUY" "Follow The Money"
In timers that have a geneva drive, it`s between the two sets of cams, not easily servicable as it entails completly stripping down the timer, not something a service man would normally attempt to produce a reliable lasting and guaranteeable repair.
- Something that did just come to mind is the fact that Hoover washers for the UK market wont work on ships that have 60 hertz supplies. the drain pumps were changed at some time from a shaded pole motor to a magnetic rotor, and while the shaded pole unit worked fine, the newer pumps couldn`t develop enough power to get the water out on 60 hz.
Before you rip the timer apart, take a look on this forum,
good luck Ron
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
I now have the timer mechanism in my possesion.
There is a synchronous motor which drives 4 gears as follows:
Driven Drive Shaft Teeth Teeth Gear:Gear Ratio Period (60Hz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Motor 12 Motor:G1 12:50 1:4.17 15 Hz G1 50 16 G1:G2 16:40 1:2.5 3.6 Hz G2 40 10 G2:G3 10:45 1:4.5 1.44 Hz G3 45 12 G3:G4 12:48 1:4 0.32 Hz G4 48 0.08 Hz (12.5 s)
Gear G4 engages the inside of a funny large ring gear - it has teath missing every 12th position. Every 12.5 s, the cam switch moves one position. However, there is a lever in the middle of the mechanism which seems to be wanting to engage something that isn't there. When that lever is prevented from moving a certain way, the main cam doesn't step. However, I can't quite see what it's really doing without further disassembly.
So, is it possible there is some escapement that is missing on this unit? There are at least two posts that look like they may be for additional gears or something but that's not conclusive.
Perhaps the original theory that something is missing deserves more consideration.
One thing I'm quite sure of is that the 50/60 Hz thing is irrelevant as far as this mechanism is concerned. The motor feels like it has around the 8 poles required to account for the 15 rps speed at which it is running (at 60 Hz).
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ:
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Sam, there`s usually a kind of 'rocking lever' a bit like a clock escapement. It`s dificult to see where any parts could go missing to unless it`s been 'got at' previously.
Ron (UK)
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further to my last post, some timers - we call them the Italian type - have a lever external to the cam barrels, which is operated by the rear cam and interupts the connection to the front cams at certain parts of the program. It`s usually on a rod which runs from front to back of the timer and has a 'flag' that fits in between the front and rear cams. If this timer has that arrangment, perhaps it`s seized up in some way.
Ron
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a photo. Sorry about the quality:
Just above the center hub, there is a white nylon tab sticking out, which is part of a lever that's mostly hidden behind the black plate. That's the lever I'm talking about. Now, it could just be sn indicator to show what's going on but it could also be part of some type of escapement. There are also a post visible on either side of the white tab which are different than the other posts used to just key the top. They could be for missing parts (or optional parts).
The blue ring gear just visible through the window is moved by the final white gear - there is a mating gear on the other side of the black plate. The blue ring gear rotates freely inside the cam cylinder, but also cycles the position of the lever. When the lever moves into a certain position, it engages the cam cylinder and causes it to move by one click. Limiting the travel of the lever prevents this movement.
What would make the most sense is that there is something missing that's supposed to do every 4th rotation of the final white gear to move the cam. That would be one minute at 50 Hz.
Isn't there anyone at the French company who can answer the simple question as to whether just powering the timer should cause the cam to move in 1 minute increments? Don't confuse them with 50/60 Hz! :)
Thanks.
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ:
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What do the two white wires go to? a pair of contacts, or a coil?
Ron
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
It's for the power.
Well if all else fails I've got a friend in the UK who I'm sure would be happy to try the darn thing on 50 Hz if it was sent over there. I'd say it's pretty safe to assume the timer is bad though, a part could have been manufactured with a crack in it and broken apart in shipping.
No, that's the motor.
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ:
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I don't think there is any issue with 50/60 Hz. The motor does what it's supposed to do and there is nothing else in there that is electrical.
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ:
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My bet is that the timer is OK. The washer has a quick wash feature button and further is supposed to be energy efficient. I bet the timer is turned on and off by a separate master timer, the interval of which is determined by demand. I think the technology is fooling the original poster.
Joe
Sam Goldwasser wrote:
-- Joe Leikhim K4SAT "The RFI-EMI-GUY" "Follow The Money"
Sam,
On page 4 of the English schematics I sent you which details the timer sequence, at the bottom left, there are some faded word that says 1T/60 sec, i.e. 1 turn/min. Would that answer your question in regards to whether the cam moves in 1 minute increments?
Furthermore, I think that each square there represents 5 minutes. If I added up all the squares for the first program which includes the pre-wash, it'll amount to 135 minutes which is very close to the user manual that indicates 2 hours 35 minutes, considering the water-fill time, repeated rinse and drain. I assume the 135 minutes would be the actual drum-turning time.
My original post stated that the wash, drain, rinse and spin all were cut short within each function. Even if it's an extremely light load, if the machine is so smart that it thinks it should take in water to wash, why wouldn't it completely empty it during the drain?
**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:
Hi...
For what it's worth, under some circumstances my old regular top loading washing machine does just that - intentionally.
I believe it's related to "wash and wear" (no iron) cycles; where it wants to cool the clothing down slowly, rather than going from a real hot wash to an influx of real cold water.
Take care.
Ken
That would seem to be pretty definitive unless something external to the timer (i.e., in the module) is supposed to hold up the timer for 45 seconds each minute.
I still say if you can find someone who can test a timer by itself by just powering the motor and seeing how long between clicks, that would clinch it.
I agree on that. Even a no-dirt load needs to be drained properly.
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ:
Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
On that type of timer, the timer motor is usually wired through a pair of the timers own contacts so that the timer pauses during the first part of the fill - and on some machines, the initial part of the water heating. The pressostat (water level switch) and/or the thermostats are responsible for re applying power to the timer motor to move it on past the pause state. The water is heated to a given temperature until the thermostat closes, then the rest of the heat cycle is a timed event. The drain cycles are just a timed event once the pressure switch opens. If the water hasnt gone when the timer comes to move on, most machines will stop. I am of course relating to UK machines here, I imagine a machine for the French market will be the same.
I think neither of these things have any relevance to the machines problem.
Ron
-- Lune Valley Audio Public address system Hire, Sales, Repairs www.lunevalleyaudio.com
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