45-degree diagonal cutters?

Not on Lindstrom steel, it isn't. They use ball bearing steel. The "shearing edges" are flawless.

BTW, side cutters perform NO shearing action whatsoever. They are not shears. They are snips. Blades and seats strike into each other. On a shear, the blades cross each other.

On Feb 11, 2:39 am, Sansui Samari wrote: SS > I cobbed a bunch of lindstrom cutters and pliers SS > from a place I worked at years ago. They were SS > going belly up and tossed out boxes of the things. SS > I'm still using the few that I haven't given away SS > or broken. As long as you don't use them to cut SS > steal (hence the broken cutters) they are SS > awesome. I wish I would have grabbed more.

G > Were they going belly up because of G > buying only the finest, or despite of that?

G > At the liquidation sales for some bankrupt G > companies, sometimes I have seen hard, G > tangeable evidence of WHY they went broke.

lifeimitateslife wrote: lil > I think you assign "hard and tangible" to lil > others when it can be assigned to you. lil > Hard and tangible evidence that your lil > statistical analysis prowess ain't that great. lil >

lil > If the difference between buying $600 lil > worth of cheap shit tools or $5000 lil > worth of long lasting, high quality tools lil > is a figure that you think could break lil > just about any company, < snip>

Are you saying that the outfit that Sansui Samurai described as having gone belly up did the right thing by buying $5000 worth of Rolls Royce hand tools rather than the Xcelite ones which would have cost $600?

G > Were they going belly up because of G > buying only the finest, or despite of that?

Didn't I convey two alternatives there?

That the outfit failed: A. BECAUSE they buy "only the finest" or B. DESPITE buying "only the finest"?

It's like option A set you off so much that you overlooked option B.

Judging from the way you took it very personally, I'm guessing that you worked somewhere where you groused about the shit Xcelite nippers all day long....

How is that different from the MacIntosh kooks?

It's also a cultural thing. Here there is a much more socialist attitude where the company owns the tools, and not the employees. Everything is shared among the workers.

Pisses (angers for you UK types) the hell out of me, but it's the way everyone thinks. People would even unlock my desk to get to my tools.

Note that until the mid 1990's no one was paid enough money to own their own tools, and to this day very few are.

I recently resarched this because someone asked me about starting business here that they had in the US. They have a tool franchise and drive around in a van selling tools to craftsmen, mechanincs, etc.

It does not translate well, the workers can't afford the tools, and the employers would rather buy a high end chinese tool than a high end US/EU made tool because it is likely to get broken, lost or stolen.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
New word I coined 12/13/09, "Sub-Wikipedia" adj, describing knowledge or
understanding, as in he has a sub-wikipedia understanding of the situation. 
i.e possessing less facts or information than can be found in the Wikipedia.

We don't have "workers", we have engineers and technicians.

I'm American.

Anybody unlocking anybody else's desk without authorization here, would be in *serious* shit.

In "my" world, the company buys the tools, the individual "owns" them.

Sounds like Snap-On

Our people are free to choose which maker's tools they want us to buy. They tend to develop a consensus.

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
                                             (Stephen Leacock)

No. I am saying that your claim that it is any indication of a causation for having gone bankrupt, is a fallacy, and it is.

Full context restored for unanswered questions.

On Feb 11, 2:39 am, Sansui Samari wrote: SS > I cobbed a bunch of lindstrom cutters and pliers SS > from a place I worked at years ago. They were SS > going belly up and tossed out boxes of the things. SS > I'm still using the few that I haven't given away SS > or broken. As long as you don't use them to cut SS > steal (hence the broken cutters) they are SS > awesome. I wish I would have grabbed more.

G > Were they going belly up because of G > buying only the finest, or despite of that? G >

G > At the liquidation sales for some bankrupt G > companies, sometimes I have seen hard, G > tangeable evidence of WHY they went broke.

lifeimitateslife wrote: lil > I think you assign "hard and tangible" to lil > others when it can be assigned to you. lil > Hard and tangible evidence that your lil > statistical analysis prowess ain't that great. lil >

lil > If the difference between buying $600 lil > worth of cheap shit tools or $5000 lil > worth of long lasting, high quality tools lil > is a figure that you think could break lil > just about any company, < snip>

G > Are you saying that the outfit that G > Sansui Samurai described as having G > gone belly up did the right thing by G > buying $5000 worth of Rolls Royce G > hand tools rather than the Xcelite G > ones which would have cost $600?

lil > No. I am saying that your claim that it is any indication of a lil > causation for having gone bankrupt, is a fallacy, and it is.

That you disagree does not make something a logical fallacy.

Wasteful overspending and overcommitment in purchasing are common contributors to business failure. The number one cause of failure for small business is undercapitalization or excessive cost of money. ie Cost controls.

The stuff that "belly up" companies throw away or liquidate MAY VERY WELL reveal important symptoms of problems that destroyed them.

Like most people here I enjoy and appreciate truly good quality tools, FOR ME.

As others have mentioned, theftability, loss and abuse CAN MEAN that the Xcelite tools provide a better Return On Investment.

The nature of the work, the security of individuals toolboxes, the number of people who might potentially forget to return a tool are all variables that could decide whether the ROLLS ROYCE quality of nippers are a good or bad idea.

Fluorescent light bulbs at $ 4 a shot are great if your mortgage is totally paid off. If you're selling your home next week or if you're a landlord the ROI's not there.

Businesses OWNING their own facilities sometimes find that they are better off to sell their own building and rent it back because they can't charge off any building cost if they OWN the building.

I neither condone this nor like it, I just report it.

I LOVE well machined high quality tools and craftsmanship, but it doesn't always show up on the P&L sheet. I wish it did.

You seem to be applying personal taste to profitability rationalizations.

That's partly why "bean counters" are so widely disliked, isn't it?

My background is in small businesses where you wear many hats and can't blame "that other guy".

G > Were they going belly up because of G > buying only the finest, or despite of that? G >

G > Didn't I convey two alternatives there? G >

G > That the outfit failed: G > A. BECAUSE they buy "only the finest" or G > B. DESPITE buying "only the finest"? G >

G > It's like option A set you off so much that G > you overlooked option B.

Did you miss option B, lil ?

G > Judging from the way you took it very G > personally, I'm guessing that you worked G > somewhere where you groused about G > the shit Xcelite nippers all day long....

G > How is that different from the G > MacIntosh kooks?

I wrote this BEFORE I read your posted story about exploding at a new guy for using your tools. Did somebody at the company give him permission to do so?

Telling the new guy to use your toolbox would seem to be fairly typical hazing or office politics considering your reaction.

No, but the remark was incorrect because there are plenty of examples of companies that have no problem stocking or using expensive items along with their other assets.

Your remark had/has absolutely no basis in fact. And that "theftability" remark was about as stupid as it gets.

Lindstrom Precision seems to have some choices:

perhaps model 7280 or model 7285 Expensive: I found US$73 for 7280, US$110 for 7285,

449 (54 of 122) Xcelite Diagonal End Cutter Pliers Angled Diagonal End Cutter, GA54J and GA5A4JV (packaging difference only) maybe US$23 450 (55 of 122) has Angled Head Cutter EGA54J, Transverse End Cutter EC54{J,JV} - may not be shape you want. Maybe $US36 Angled Tip Cutter LC665{J,JV} maybe US$27

All cost estimates from

all price estimates are probably exclusive of handling, shipping, taxes, etc.

One big difference in these types of tools, is whether they are made from sheet steel stampings, or forged steel. The forged steel versions typically last for decades, but cost more.

I have some miniature forged steel flush cutting pliers sold by Snap-On which have handles that are nearly 90 degrees to the cutting edges. The cutting jaws are fairly small, and project outward to one side. The reach of the cutting edges allows them to reach under obstructions by about 1/4". Some other forged steel flush cutting models I have were made by Hunter. Several are the typical cutters which have the cutting edges in a straight line to the handles, but a couple pair have the cutting edges at nearly 45 degrees, which make it possible to reach slightly under certain obstructions.

I think that flush cutting is always better than the common beveled cutting edges. Cutting requires less effort, and there's less distortion of the material that's just "pinched off" by common beveled jaws.

-- Cheers, WB .............

The lindstroms are not forged. They are fully machined from ball bearing steel.

Just like the steel plate in your head?

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

Yeah, it is so steely that it stole away any hope you ever had of being considered an intelligent individual in this group.

Full context restored for unanswered questions.

On Feb 11, 2:39 am, Sansui Samari wrote: SS > I cobbed a bunch of lindstrom cutters and pliers SS > from a place I worked at years ago. They were SS > going belly up and tossed out boxes of the things. SS > I'm still using the few that I haven't given away SS > or broken. As long as you don't use them to cut SS > steal (hence the broken cutters) they are SS > awesome. I wish I would have grabbed more.

G > Were they going belly up because of G > buying only the finest, or despite of that? G >

G > At the liquidation sales for some bankrupt G > companies, sometimes I have seen hard, G > tangeable evidence of WHY they went broke.

lifeimitateslife wrote: lil > I think you assign "hard and tangible" to lil > others when it can be assigned to you. lil > Hard and tangible evidence that your lil > statistical analysis prowess ain't that great. lil >

lil > If the difference between buying $600 lil > worth of cheap shit tools or $5000 lil > worth of long lasting, high quality tools lil > is a figure that you think could break lil > just about any company, < snip>

G > Are you saying that the outfit that G > Sansui Samurai described as having G > gone belly up did the right thing by G > buying $5000 worth of Rolls Royce G > hand tools rather than the Xcelite G > ones which would have cost $600?

lil > No. I am saying that your claim that it is any indication of a lil > causation for having gone bankrupt, is a fallacy, and it is.

G > That you disagree does not make something a logical fallacy.

G > Wasteful overspending and overcommitment G > in purchasing are common contributors to G > business failure. The number one cause of G > failure for small business is undercapitalization G > or excessive cost of money. ie Cost controls.

G > The stuff that "belly up" companies throw away G > or liquidate MAY VERY WELL reveal important G > symptoms of problems that destroyed them.

G > Like most people here I enjoy and appreciate G > truly good quality tools, FOR ME.

G > As others have mentioned, theftability, loss G > and abuse CAN MEAN that the Xcelite tools G > provide a better Return On Investment.

G > The nature of the work, the security of G > individuals toolboxes, the number of people G > who might potentially forget to return a G > tool are all variables that could decide G > whether the ROLLS ROYCE quality of G > nippers are a good or bad idea.

G > Fluorescent light bulbs at $ 4 a shot are G > great if your mortgage is totally paid off. G > If you're selling your home next week G > or if you're a landlord the ROI's not there.

G > Businesses OWNING their own facilities G > sometimes find that they are better off to G > sell their own building and rent it back G > because they can't charge off any building G > cost if they OWN the building.

G > I neither condone this nor like it, I just report it.

G > I LOVE well machined high quality tools G > and craftsmanship, but it doesn't always G > show up on the P&L sheet. I wish it did.

G > You seem to be applying personal taste G > to profitability rationalizations.

G > That's partly why "bean counters" are G > so widely disliked, isn't it?

G > My background is in small businesses G > where you wear many hats and can't G > blame "that other guy".

G > Were they going belly up because of G > buying only the finest, or despite of that? G >

G > Didn't I convey two alternatives there? G >

G > That the outfit failed: G > A. BECAUSE they buy "only the finest" or G > B. DESPITE buying "only the finest"? G >

G > It's like option A set you off so much that G > you overlooked option B.

G > Did you miss option B, lil ?

G > Judging from the way you took it very G > personally, I'm guessing that you worked G > somewhere where you groused about G > the shit Xcelite nippers all day long....

G > How is that different from the G > MacIntosh kooks?

G > I wrote this BEFORE I read your posted G > story about exploding at a new guy for G > using your tools. Did somebody at the G > company give him permission to do so?

G > Telling the new guy to use your toolbox G > would seem to be fairly typical hazing or G > office politics considering your reaction.

-------------------------------------

G > That you disagree does not make something a logical fallacy.

AL > No, but the remark was incorrect because there AL > are plenty of examples of companies that have AL > no problem stocking or using expensive items AL > along with their other assets.

Those would fall under option B that I suggested from the beginning.

AL > Your remark had/has absolutely no basis in fact.

Please diagram your logic.

AL > And that "theftability" remark was about as stupid as it gets.

So extremely so that you didn't have to explain how, logically, right?

AwlSome Auger wrote: AA > The lindstroms are not forged. They are AA > fully machined from ball bearing steel.

That's a strange way to pretend you have balls.

Did anybody else get the feeling that "life imitates life" is somehow getting a kickback from lindstrom?

LOL

Nah, no one would actually pay someone to be AlwaysWrong.

Yawn. Another lame dimbulb attempt at a putdown.

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Corbomite Carrie DarkMatter DarkSucker Do I really need to say? Dorothy with the Red Shoes on Dr. Heywood R. Floyd FatBytestard

FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor George Orr GoldIntermetallicEmbrittlement

Hattori Hanzo Herbert John \Jackie\" Gleason" HiggsField IAmTheSlime ItsASecretDummy Jupiter Jaq

Kai LargeMarge life imitates life lurch MadManMoon MakeNoAttemptToAdjustYourSet snipped-for-privacy@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org

MeowSayTongue Mr.Eko Mr. Haney

Mycelium Mycelium Neanderthal OutsideObserver Pieyed Piper Phat Bytestard RoyLFuchs scorpius

SkyPilot SomeKindOfWonderful

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UltimatePatriot UpGrade UpYerNose

ValleyGirl VioletaPachydermata WallyWallWhackr

100WattDarkSucker

--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

It is like you are trying to say that a company would go under because it chose an expensive Mac over a PC. It is severely flawed logic.

Maybe not in the little hick town hick shop you worked in, but where I work all the employees are honorable.

It's not always a question of honor. In a socialist/communist environment work (or the workers) own the tools and not each individual worker.

As China and India come up in the world, it's going to be the way things are done.

What keeps the small craftsmen in the west going is that no one can duplicate the work they do, at the price they do it. Eventually due to improved skill and more automation, they will.

When it gets to the point that a designer in the US can email a design file to a shop in Hong Kong, or elsewhere in the PRC, and get a perfect model delivered by FedEx in a few days for 1/2 the cost of producing locally, those companies will close quickly.

Look at what happened to the printing industry.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com  N3OWJ/4X1GM
New word I coined 12/13/09, "Sub-Wikipedia" adj, describing knowledge or
understanding, as in he has a sub-wikipedia understanding of the situation. 
i.e possessing less facts or information than can be found in the Wikipedia.

You think India communist? ;-)

--
*I thought I saw an eye doctor on an Alaskan island, but it turned out to

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.