Absolutely. But only if the new stuff shows ROI potential. Otherwise it'll be shot down by the accounting folks.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
That assumes that the operating environment does not change during a few decades.
However, in the real world, passengers demand higher speeds and in order to be able to compete e.g. with motorways, new trains with higher speed needs to be acquired.
The old stock that has not reached the end of economical life, is relegated to less demanding tasks, such as freight trains or switchyard operations.
Paul
On a sunny day (Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:53:34 -0700) it happened Joerg wrote in :
Oh, well, opinions opinions :-)
Hell did you even read the links? All the high speed trains use 25 kV 50 Hz.
are in use.
No, it is the first to go to 25 kV 50 Hz in Germany.
For high power (they move tons of ore it seems) and long distances, you need a high voltage allowing for lower currents, else you need a power station every few miles.
Germany has indeed invested a lot in that old antiques stuff, and you are right that that stuff lasts many years. Then have been experimenting with magnetic levitation trains too, and tried to sell one to us in the Netherlands. too expensive. The French got it right (Paris Lyon), and that line is now extended all the way to Amsterdam, in December or January the first trains should run on it, in Dutch:
I got a design request in the sixties for a safety system for the trains here, it had a 10 year service life specified. No electrolytic cap manufacturer wanted to guarantee their products for 10 years, so gave it back. Without electrolytics was not easy then, and not easy now. It is all about risk calculation, things will break down anyways :-)
That is true, but we want to go ever faster, 300 km/h and faster. The old stuff does not have the streamline :-)
are in use.
If it is going to be the first, how then can the statement you made above (All the high speed trains use 25 kV 50 Hz) be true?
high voltage
right that that stuff lasts many years.
sell one to us in the Netherlands.
way to Amsterdam, in December
Ok, but what's the big difference to the 16.7Hz system? 300km/h as they write there isn't that unusual anymore. In the US yes, but not in Europe. AFAIK the ICE3 track out of Wolfsburg has a speed limit of
330km/h. My wife didn't like riding that fast at all.BTW, they mentioned 7 Euros more for the ticket. That's a lot for
160km/h (in Germany that isn't even considerd high-speed), are they going to keep it at that for 300km/h? And what's the ticket base cost anyhow? I rode that stretch a few times but don't remember. Considering start and deceleration I don't see much sense in a 300km/h track between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. The regular Spoorwegen train was fast enough for me to get to Schiphol.10 years is nothing. I often have to maintain 20 or 30.
years, so gave it back.
Actually, many of my recent designs carry no electrolytics. And, of course, no tantalums. One concern with larger ceramics is thermal stress fracture so its either L-bracketed stacks if the budget allows or through-hole parts.
Go visit Germany and hop on an ICE :-)
Maybe this will help explain things to you:
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Much of it doesn't. Only the passenger part of it really does and that's usually not where the big bucks are being earned.
In the US we just hop on a plane, even faster :-)
But of course I wish we had an ICE or similar system for local stuff, like between here and Silicon Valley. Then I wouldn't have to drive that boring stretch anymore.
Sure. But then the old stock still needs to be fed from the power grid. After all, the 1960's locomotive may have to pull a gasoline tanker train all the way from the port of Bremen to Munich. And if it doesn't like 50Hz then that has to be kept at 16.7Hz, which they seem to be doing (for now) and which makes perfect sense to me.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
systems are in use.
a high voltage
right that that stuff lasts many years.
to sell one to us in the Netherlands.
way to Amsterdam, in December
How'd your wife like to ride with me? I've done just shy of 220km/hr, for nearly an hour from Frankfurt to Bühlertal... in a car ;-) ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
LOSE the WUSS
BRING BACK BUSH
systems are in use.
a high voltage
right that that stuff lasts many years.
to sell one to us in the Netherlands.
way to Amsterdam, in December
Whenever I did that she motioned to me to tune it down a bit :-)
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Sep 2009 09:07:31 -0700) it happened Joerg wrote in :
Well I did not know that hose old clunkers could go 330, really. Felt more like a snail when I was in it, but I have now found a link that says that it only can go that fast in some very limited places.
Schiphol is almost in Amsterdam, that only takes a few minutes, and that train stops everywhere.
I dunno about the price, railways get more expensive every year, I prefer a car. But indeed when flying it may make sense if you are away longer then a few days to use a train, long parking at the airport can get expensive too.
LOL, big comet in 2028? Times are changing, the old analog TV system lasted maybe 50 years, this one is already old after 10, investors want quicker return, they are not looking for long time solutions. So changes will happen faster and faster, and design life will be shorter, until it gets to zero in the next nuke war. After that you roast squirrel or rats on a wood fire and use animal fat for candles. Then after a thousand years, perhaps, somebody will want a long term solution, probably horse and carriage.
years, so gave it back.
Well, OK, ceramics suck in many ways, but no electrolytics is difficult. Especially when you need to filter mains or something. You can do 3 phase rectifiers and have about 5% ripple to work with, OK. It depends on what it is for.
Throw away trains, throw away electronics,
I have been there, done that. Like I said, I prefer the car, last time drove from here to Berlin by car, left in the morning, arrived in the afternoon. No train stations, no waiting, no tickets, better privacy, and, cheaper too.
They say they more and more draw power from the normal 50 Hz net, and then convert it to DC, and then to 16.x Hz. So that sort of makes it even more practical to do away with all those conversion steps, and upgrade the tracks and trains to 25 kV 50 Hz,
When WW3 smashes all that stuff a good moment to build a better one.
Sure didn't feel like a snail when I was in it.
Well, I was at a client in Rotterdam.
car.
days to use a train,
Same here. Except there is no train :-(
is already
time solutions.
until it gets to zero in the next nuke war.
candles.
probably horse and carriage.
Well, have you ever worked in industrial electronics, aerospace, oil? Take a look at the "computer" in the space shuttle. And yeah, while many wisecrack folks overseas make jokes about it none of them _has_ a space shuttle.
Same in industrial. There is a reason why you can still buy brand new ISA-bus computers. Yes, even in the Netherlands. Someone from Europe was asking a while ago and that's where I found a major dealer for those.
years, so gave it back.
left in
That was a joy with the car when I did it last time. Because now after the dreaded wall is gone they built a real autobahn from Helmstedt to Berlin.
convert it to DC, and then to 16.x Hz.
conversion steps, and upgrade the tracks
We'll all have to watch out so there is no WW3.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
car.
days to use a train,
is already
time solutions.
until it gets to zero in the next nuke war.
candles.
solution, probably horse and carriage.
years, so gave it back.
left in
convert it to DC, and then to 16.x Hz.
conversion steps, and upgrade the tracks
Obama is bent on guaranteeing that it will happen. Even threatening Israel if its jets fly over Iraq on their way to Iran :-( ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I pledge allegiance to Dear Leader Barack Hussein Obama and to the
community organization for which he stands: one nation under
ACORN, unchallengeable, with wealth redistribution and climate
change for all.
On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:37:23 -0700) it happened Joerg wrote in :
OK, that takes a bit longer, maybe an hour or so by train.
Industrial yes, oil yes, aerospace not directly.
Well there are many who have no ulcer, should they be sad about it? That space ship is a total mishap. So is the ISS, it just circles and brings back nothing (but pictures). For stuff to put into space they could have used normal rockets, and for the billions it has cost to keep that space low orbit plane flying they could have a moon base, mars base even. Repairing Hubble, for that money you could launch a new one very few years. Get the right mirror second try ;-) Politics has completely killed sane science and engineering there. It is just a social project to keep some techies and managers busy. NASA.
You can buy anything for money, hey my Tyan mobo with PCI in the server ALSO has one ISA slot. Such a mobo with PCI and ISA was hard to find at that time, 9 years ago. I needed the ISA for a Philips TV1000 line doubler TV card...
Well, it will all be PCIe, much higher data rates, USB3 too, there is already a newer thing but cannot remember what it is, Oh, yes, Intel goes optical (again) 10 Gbit/s:
The scenario I see is this: Obamama lets Israel bomb Iran, because the multinationals (oil) want control of the Iranian resources, and up the oil price. Then Iran will react and bomb Israel. Obamama will then come to the 'rescue of the world' by invading Iran. A second Iraq. Everybody (else) in Opec will like the peak in oil prices, Russia needs it too. So what can go wrong? Nothing can go wrong, except when US can no longer buy goods.. As it then becomes unimportant as expert area, other countries will no longer dance to its tune, and do their own thing (export to China, perhaps currency Euro) changing US into a third world like continent. Then it can no longer pay it's army, and loses control of its nuclear stockpile, some self named generals, or warlords if you will, will start launching some stuff from the silos to impress others, that will be misunderstood by yet others (misunderstood well..), and a lot of fireworks will happen. As by that time a lot of weapon production has moved to cheap labour countries in Asia, and the owners are all there and in the middle east, those will test their new weapons in the US, because it is better to play war far from your bed. I really liked that movie Defcon 4, in that movie it was Russian rebels who started WW3, but it could as well be US rebels.
Anyways, A n y w a y s
train
Exactly, and I can't see a bullet train make much of a difference there like the article seems to suggest. For commuters, maybe, but only for lawyers and doctors because it'll be expensive.
Then how on earth did you get away with 10 years service life designs?
So, do you have a better one?
You seem to sometimes judge from the hip without looking close enough. Just the experiments in gravitational biology alone can easily justify something like the ISS You simply cannot do this stuff on earth.
billions
base, mars base even.
It generates know-how that can then be used for other things. Also, how else would you be able to bring large quantities of stuff back to earth so the effects of cosmic rays and such can be studied back home?
has one ISA slot.
Hard to find? Piece of cake:
Or contact these guys in Breda, they'll get one for you:
Or these guys, also in Breda:
Still wondering what could have been so difficult back then ...
a newer thing but cannot remember
with google.
ISA will be around for a very long time because of all the legacy cards used in industry.
of the Iranian resources, and up the oil price.
too.
becomes unimportant as expert area, other countries
perhaps currency Euro) changing US into a third world like
stockpile, some self named generals, or
impress others, that will be misunderstood by
What have you been smoking? I thought you don't smoke.
[...]-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:44:38 -0700) it happened Joerg wrote in :
I wonder if you ever designed for industry, those things never were an issue.
Nobody wants a better ulcer.
Na, just some ideas, no real breakthroughs. NASA had to beg to get any experiments at all. I followed the press conference when the Japanese lab module was launched, one reporter asked: 'So what experiments will be done in this module?' The Japanse guy HAD NO CLUE, then a NASA official stated: "We will have to find something working with the other agencies'. That is how much crap it is.
There is not much a difference between the cosmic rays at that altitude and those on top of a high mountain. Cosmic rays can also be studied by high altitude balloons, for a fraction of the cost. The earth magnetic filed causes the intensity of the cosmic rays near the poles to be greater then at the equator. Collision products of cosmic rays with the atmosphere, like mesons, can reach earth and be detected in cloud chambers.
So what are you trying to prove, that ISA is the future? I tell you what, if a new factory is build, and some control is required, it could well be a PLC. If PCs are needed to interface, then it does not matter, what PCs. It all depends. If you design embedded solutions you need no ISA either.
I want no ISA :-)
a newer thing but cannot remember
with google.
ISA was easy to design, I designed ISA cards for industry for a living, hehe. But really that was in the eighties.
If things go kaput, after so many years, well to tell you the truth as far as I know all those things have been replaced by newer stuff long ago. New processes, new equipment, new factories.
Well, world politics is really easy from the POV of money these days. No need for me to smoke anything to see that. Probably always was that way. The show played for the masses is, and the games played with those masses, are old old old.
The ship was destroyed already in the requirements phase. One of the planned user, the USAF required a capability to bring down big and heavy loads (apparently to avoid spy satellites falling into wrong hands) and also the requirement to return to the launch site after one orbit. Since the earth rotates below the orbital plane, returning to launch site requires considerable aerodynamic sideways flying capability, i.e. large heavy and vulnerable wings.
After all, the USAF did not use it for long and after that USAF design requirements just caused a lot of harm to the scientific operations.
For gravitational biology, a Skylab, Saljut or Mir type station would have been far enough, supplied by small Apollo or Soyuz type vehicles.
billions
base, mars base even.
Apart from retrieval of the LDEF, what are the other cases when such heavy return capability is _really_ needed ?
Paul
In normal industrial applications, it is seldom required that each and every component will last for decades. If a system is critical for plant operation, double or triple redundancy is often used, so there are usually a few days time to replace a failed subsystem.
For plants that are going to function for decades, it is important to have a stable control system architecture, in which the plant system can be extended with compatible subsystems which are implemented with radically different (more modern) hardware.
If the architecture is stable enough, you can even remove the racks of central parts of a 10-20 year old system and replace with new racks and connect the cables in one or two days. Plants usually require shutdowns at least every few years for mechanical engineering overhaul, so the control system can be upgraded without extra loss of production.
However, when planning for extended (10-40 years) life cycles require quite conservative design. You can not design for a single source fancy processor card with all the peripherals you might want. It is quite likely that such cards will not be in production after a few years, the card vendor might go bankrupt or bought by a competitor. These days the RoHS directive will cause the end of life of some products that otherwise would have been in production for years.
For this reason, passive backplanes have been quite popular, so that single function (often with multiple interfaces) cards can be used from whichever vendor might produce suitable cards for some years, which era hopefully will partly overlap with cards from different vendors.
Paul
For about 20 years now. And for the companies I designed for those things were darn certainly an issue. As they should be.
Sure, there are situation where you must use electrolytic for example. But one can pick from the good stuff and then it lasts almost forever.
I've seen much different scenarios.
those on top of a high mountain.
the cost.
I'd love to see you dangling off a high altitude balloon, all shivering, and trying to adjust the (frozen) knobs on some lab equimpent.
poles to be greater then at the equator.
earth and be detected in cloud chambers.
I know that it is, because of legacy equipment that has a li'l better quality than your 10 years of service live stuff. Else there wouldn't be the companies I pointed out to you.
could well be a PLC.
That means you don't design for industry.
already a newer thing but cannot remember
with google.
I know all those
If you design for 10 years, yeah, then stuff will go kaputt. That's unacceptable in the US and, just as one example, production lasers runs for decades. ISA cards control those. The qties are so low that a redesign would not make any economic sense, so it remains ISA.
old old old.
Where did you get that stuff? From some leftist pamphlet "newspaper"?
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
Tell that to the guy who is facing a module failure at the ocean floor. Yeah, redundancy keeps it humming but now the clock is ticking and someone has to got down there. Same if it's gear in some remote location north of the polar circle. Sure, you can send folks out there but it's going to cost ya, big time. The real bummer is when a module on a satelite croaks. You can't call the auto club and request a tow ;-)
Much of the stuff I design cannot be shut down. If it has to be, that either causes grief or racks up costs.
Well, anyhow, in a sense I should probably be grateful to people designing for 10 years service life because it brings me business. Some calls start like this: "We have a design that works nicely and is deployed in lots of places but we are seeing way too many field failures ..." That's when I roll up my sleeves.
Sometimes this taxes the bottomline of a business so badly that it can shake its foundation. Not good at all. The best compliment I ever got was "Since last Thursday I can sleep through the nights again." That's when the new field failure numbers had come in after the redesign.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
We seem to have a different opinion on what is a "normal industrial application" .
On a non-redundant case, the clock starts ticking when the device is first installed.
I am living a hundred kilometers South of the Arctic Circle, at least in Europe, if there is some kind of industrial plant North of the Arctic circle, there is also a road to it.
Even industrial plants in the middle of nowhere, usually some personnel for running the plant, so it is not a big deal to stock spare parts and train the local personnel to perform module swaps,.
While redundancy adds weight and as such it is very undesirable in flying aerospace applications, there are all kind of redundant systems, such as multiple redundant fly-by-wire systems or spare TWTs in communication satellites.
Regarding the designed lifetime, of course it makes sense to design for a long lifetime if the replacement is very expensive or if the plant expected life time is so short that a long life component is unlikely to need a replacement during the plant lifetime.
However, some plant lifetime might be 20-100 years, so it is very unlikely that much of the original hardware is used at the end, so in practice rolling upgrades are performed. Typically some large plant mid-life update is often also performed.
Large industrial plants are usually running 24/7, but in order to reach a plant lifetime of several decades, some incremental updates needs to be done every few years and the plant must be shut down for a day or a up to month for mechanical overhaul. The control system can be booted at this time or even replaced, without negative effects on the production.
Paul
On a sunny day (Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:18:58 -0700) it happened Joerg wrote in :
the cost.
If you had followed the litterature on tha tkind of research (high energy particles from space), then you would know that it is also done with high altitude balloons. We have automatic equipment, no body needs to go up there.
Forget about ISA, if anything, optical interconnect of embedded units is the future, as in factories and similar envronmat that is not sensitive to interference. I started using optical for that in the eightoes.
I have no problem with you making a living by maintaining ancient relics though.
are old old old.
I do not read pamplets, and neither newspapers. All is electronic these days. Sorry if I peed on your Amercian dream, what is left of it that is.
LOL
the cost.
particles from space),
If you had worked more in research you would know that things can turn unpredictable and that not everything can be done by robots.
future,
You have. And I have. But the manufacturers of industrial lasers haven't, the manufacturers of bonders haven't, and, and ...
though.
Not me, companies do that. For very good reasons.
are old old old.
You can trust me on that one, the dream is alive and kicking. How come, for example, that the R&D in medical areas such as ultrasound is now all here and not in Eindhoven or Erlangen anymore?
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
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