What it really takes to be black

It's more of a thought experiment, and doesn't involve any actual geometrical calculations of the resonator. The shape isnt mentioned, just that it's a container filled with thermal photons, and there exists a hole which looks into that container.

A cube would probably be easier, if you wanted to include actual calculations of modes and reflections. If you like, suppose the opening is perfectly focused with telescopic optics, and angled at a transcendental angle (i.e., tan(angle) is not a rational number) so it undergoes infinite reflections within the box.

That's a very roundabout way of simply willing it into being: that there is some sort of chamber, which exhibits a series of modes, and that the viewport somehow experiences the thermal equilibrium of those modes. Physicists are great at making up s%!t like that. :-)

Yup. The best "blacks" take advantage of the residual reflectance of the surface, using the "stack of razor blades" effect to trap glancing reflections ever deeper within the surface. And then making a cavity out of that, so there really isn't hardly anything that's getting back out in a non-thermal manner.

The ideal cavity has a fractal structure, something like a Koch snowflake with a bit steeper angles on the faces to better trap the radiation. Of course, the nano scale "black" materials do this to the lowest of scales, so they're quite good even without the larger structure.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams
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On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 07:45:49 -0500, Neon John Gave us:

Nope A red hot alumina sphere wall does not reflect back anything. It emits, and any of the room's ambient it might reflect back would not be seen by any instrument being calibrated. It is not an additive energy. The hottest thing is what gets observed.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

I've seen spheres that had a black cone opposite the entry hole, to splatter light sideways.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

Not true.

Reply to
krw

The statute of limitations has run out, but I'm sure there is some other rule out there that makes me a criminal.

Mikek

Reply to
amdx

I've seen spheres that had a black cone opposite the entry hole, to splatter light sideways. =====================================================================

Wonder if you could just move the entry hole over at least one hole radius so the reflection point would be exactly aligned with the hole edge, or maybe as much as half of the sphere radius to get a steeper back wall reflection angle? That way no direct return reflections and no extra fabrication inside the sphere.

----- Regards, Carl Ijames

Reply to
Carl Ijames

Basically, the "defacing laws" boil down to mining[*] coins and counterfeiting. You can light your stogies with it, as long as you don't try to pass it off as something it isn't.

[*] Either melting or "shaving" them for the metal.
Reply to
krw

Just to be that guy,

A round hole, in the surface of a hollow spherical shell, has an axis which is always colinear with the sphere's radius. :-)

If the shell has some thickness to it, the hole won't admit all angles, or if a lens is used. Of course that's all just a matter of not necessarily having "black" from those angles.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC 
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design 
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com
Reply to
Tim Williams

Then just rotate the sphere a few degrees from the line to the source.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics
Reply to
John Larkin

On Sun, 06 Mar 2016 20:15:38 -0800, John Larkin Gave us:

You guys seem to forget that the cavity temperature is what becomes the source. The shell itself is where the heaters are embedded, and the alumina tube through which the instrument to be calibrated sights the emission is cooler than the cavity and long enough to keep anything but the back of the sphere from being looked at.

The fact remains that a spherical cavity is the ideal source of a uniform, temperature stable emittance, and is how many high temp calibration sources were made and are still made to this day. And it is the best source for an IR optical temperature measuring instrument to be calibrated from. An NIST certified thermocouple probe and PID

instrument calibrations are as accurate as can be.

There is NOTHING "reflecting off the back wall of the sphere".

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Just to be that guy,

A round hole, in the surface of a hollow spherical shell, has an axis which is always colinear with the sphere's radius. :-)

If the shell has some thickness to it, the hole won't admit all angles, or if a lens is used. Of course that's all just a matter of not necessarily having "black" from those angles.

Tim ==========================================================

If it's an "out-ie", a black body source, then leave the hole on axis and restrict the field of view of whatever is receiving the light to smaller than the hole or exit tube diameter, and there is no reflection problem because there shouldn't be any light entering the sphere. However, if it's an "in-ie", an integrating sphere for a power measurement or a beam dump where photons go in but you don't want them to get back out, then reflection off of the point exactly in line with the on-axis entrance hole does matter. John mentioned using a cone on axis, I just thought moving the entrance hole over would be simpler. The actual hole on the surface of the sphere would be an ellipse (I think) around the radius that passes through the center of the hole and of the sphere, but would appear circular to the light entering along a line parallel to a radius of the sphere but offset from it. The curvature of the sphere would add to the apparent wall thickness, but that just means you have to make the sphere and hole big enough relative to the beam diameter to not have any light hit the edge. Anyway, just some mental doodling and I'm sure that the people who build and use integrating spheres have looked at all of this many years ago.

----- Regards, Carl Ijames

Reply to
Carl Ijames

Well, near-perfect, it's true of any shape so long as the hole is significantly smaller than the vessel (this setup is often referred to as a furnace)

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  \_(?)_
Reply to
Jasen Betts

Sorry, guys. I was not serious. I just forgot add the smiley face.

Reply to
John S

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