Looking for a good, simple web meeting service for a startup company. Skype and Webex are out, mostly because of IMHO sub-par SW quality and unhappiness with support. Requirements:
_Must_ work without requiring people to disable firewalls or other security features. Meaning _no_ Java or any of this. Should also work on smart phones if possible (in our case Blackberry and Samsung-Win8".
If there is a hiccup it must send clear error messages. Not such utter nonsense as "Skype has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience ...". I expect a message that says what the likely problem is, just like the SW on gear that I design does.
Must allow entering of any participant before meetings start and allow the meeting to actually begin, even if the host is late. Some telecon services fail miserably here.
Must announce which meeting one is in. To my surprise some don't. "Hey, let's all welcome Joerg. So tell us, where's your meat packing plant?" (BT ...)
Reasonably priced. For example, I have very good experience with Go-To-Meeting but it's about $50/mo. That's ok but AFAIK if the account holder is on the road and participate at least one of the others must hold an account. That gets quite expensive.
Audio-only access for people on the road. If a paid service there should ideally be a 1-800 number so they can use a hotel phone without paying through the nose.
I've seen offers on the web like this ...
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... but quite frankly I'd like to get opinions first. Because I am sick and tired of loading yet another SW package only to find out that the whole thing is a dud.
Although, in reality, I run pretty old equipment and software, and have had no problems with Skype, Webex, or GoToMeeting, for that matter.
But you have previously posted that you have problems with almost every software known to man :-)
Have you checked your system out? I'm beginning to suspicion that your paranoia has multiple anti-virus packages running simultaneously ... which is a no-no.
[snip] ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Nope, only with software of poor quality. Else how come that LTSpice, Cadsoft Eagle, Gerber View, and tons of others never crash on the same PC?
Classic example: Acrobat Reader crashed hard all the time. Ditched it, loaded Foxit -> No more crashes, same kind of docs viewed (actually the very same ones after the switch). Now that tells a rather clear story, doesn't it?
Then why does it work for other software? For example, when it comes to web meetings I noticed that Go-To-Meeting works every single time. Always did, right off the bat. So they must do something right. But because there seems to be a requirement that there be at least one dues-paying host logged in for every session that is financially out of league right.
I don't know very much about the deep regions of PCs but I know this: Some of the stuff I design has telemetry features into the web. It all runs with cast-iron performance.
Are you _really_ running multiple anti-virus packages?
If so, there's no point in giving you our experiences... depending on what they are looking for, anti-virus software's can screw each other up. ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Probably. But I DO suspect his real problem is two or more anti-virus packages fighting each other.
Though, if Joerg doesn't do Wimpows updates, he probably doesn't do Skype updates either.
I find Skype pretty much flawless. I have a very occasional dropped call from Hong Kong... but the guy on that end is a klutz ;-) ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
It can take only one opcode sequence to crash a computer if it has a flaw. Back when I had a computer repair service I once diagnosed a computer which wouldn't run Eudora.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
On this PC I have Acrobat v4, Acrobat v7, Adobe Reader 10.0.0.5, Eudora v7.1.0.9, Agent v6, Firefox v 18.0.1, PSpice v15.7 and all kinds of home-made and purchased utilities.
Crashes... Can't remember when I last had a problem... after I dumped out the .NET Framework crap ;-) ...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
You'd think that there would be a free equivalent of GTM by now. You could hack a near equivalent, just a little batch file that uses Boxcutter and Dropbox.
I'm using Dropbox in a sorta-realtime telemetry application and it works great. It's been up for 694 hours now, since I started it up.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
Hmmm... I use Skype and Webex. Skype is a pile of bugs, but Cisco Webex seems quite reliable. If you need support, you're already lost.
That depends on the firewall. The local hospital blocks all UDP traffic making any kind of screaming video, in or out, impossible. I had to get special dispensation from the keeper of the router to setup video conferencing. The server based web conferencing software that I've had to deal with all use a STUN server to bore holes in your firewall. Some software (Microsloth 360) try to use UPnP to deal with the firewalls.
Ahem. Java in the browser is currently a security risk while Oracle tried to catch up on years of neglecting Java. The danger is from crafted Java web applets, not from running Java apps on your desktop. The standard recommendation is to un-check "Enable Java content in the browser". However, if the server application delivers a Java application to the client to run in the browser, you're correct, that's risky.
Dunno about Blackberry, but just about all the various web conferencing systems have iPhone, iPad, and Android apps. I'm down to supporting zero Blackberrys, which is a shame as it was a reliable system (punctuated by spectacular failures).
Most applications dump a debug log somewhere. The catch is that you often have to start the application in debug mode. For example, here's how to make Webex belch copious quantities of unintelligible gibberish: Scroll down to the debug section.
I like detailed debugging information. What I hate are the troubleshooting "wizard" that usually follows the error message. I have yet to find one that actually works.
How do they fail? Everything I've ever tried allows adding and dropping participants on the fly. What I find disgusting is that the ones that charge by the connected client or by the minute often bill for time when the client was not online. For example, I help with a medical office that give online webinars. The live lecture went on for many hours as users came, asked questions, and left. When finished, the lecturer was horrified to discover that he was getting billed for hundreds of users, even though no more than 20 or so were online at one time. While vendors describe their billing system to the best of their attorney's abilities, it does help to test your interpretation.
Oops. Yeah, that's true. The name of the meeting usually appears on the screen somewhere, but that's no guarantee against accidents. I've screwed up a few times myself. The easiest fix is to make the webinar private, which requires a password to enter. If the password is in the title, it's unlikely that you'll have uninvited dropins.
Fat pipes are not cheap. HD video raises the price even more.
That's about the typical rate. Some charge as low as $25/month, but then add charges by the minute or by the user.
I've had zero requests from my customers for either of those features. Somehow, that seems like the tail wagging the dog, and the lack of voice only would not be a show stopper. At worst, just turn off the video and the web browser will continue to pass audio. The iPhone and Android apps that I've tried all default to no video.
Here's 13 more web conferencing applications to try: I would recommend Webex or Skype.
I can sorta guess that you've never actually used web conferencing software. I'm involved in a virtual company with 6 other people scattered across the globe. In the past, it was more companies and more people. We use various methods of communications. It's rare that we have a web video conference as email and Dropbox are good enough. However, when a video conference is required (i.e. annual meeting), it's almost always a fiasco. Of the 7-20 participants, one or more are chronically late, usually due to miscalculated time zones and daylight savings time anomalies. Think UTC/GMT.
There's always someone with a nice new computah, tablet, or HD camera, that hasn't bothered to test their video. This year, that was me with a new HD camera that had trouble cramming 3.5Mbits/sec through a
1.5/0.384 Mbit/sec pipe. The first 15 to 30 minutes of the conference is always (and I do mean always) wasted getting each users hardware working. I've had to insist that participants install Teamviewer on their machines so that I can diagnose and fix their setup.
Once the meeting gets going, there's always someone with a performance issue. All the software I've tried allows adjust the video resolution, which invariably ends up on the lowest resolution in order to make the talking heads look reasonable. However, that changes if we have to markup a drawing. After multiple failures to play whiteboard during a large conference, we have elected to take a step backwards and use Dropbox to store annotated drawings. The result is dozens of divergent drawings, but as long as they are properly time stamped, it's not a problem.
Anyway, me never humble advice is to pick the first thing that sorta works. Don't commit to a long term relationship with the vendor. Beat it up until the limitations and bugs are obvious. Once you know if it's going to be useful, go shopping again, this time with some experience. My prediction is that you'll revert to email and voice.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
It all comes down to quality hardware and proper cooling...
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
It's my automation thing for our little cabin in the Sierras. I have a mini-ITX computer running XP. It connects serially to a home-made board that does temperature acquisition and can turn on the heat remotely, so it's not 35 degrees in there when people arrive.
It uses a shared Dropbox folder. I can drop command files into it, and a couple of programs in the cabin computer will execute them. The software is mostly in PowerBasic.
Hardware:
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Driveway pic, using Yawcam and a USB camera on 70' of extenders:
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Status report:
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Temperature trends, big file:
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Dropbox handles all the "internet" stuff, and seems very reliable.
Boxcutter can snap a screen shot, and that can go into the Dropbox folder, which can be shared. That's the poor-man's GoToMeeting. Let me try that now...
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It worked! I remotely invoked Boxcutter to take a screen shot and put that into the Dropbox folder. Sort of reinventing the remote console thing.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators
When Webex didn't work and after a lot of prodding they finally said that pop-up blocking must be unchecked and that I must allow web sites to install (!) add-ons. I asked them whether they were kidding. They were not.
Yes, that's what I want to keep blocked. Especially in light of the recent security blooper.
Well, one of the guys uses Blackberry so it would be nice if there is support, but not a firm requirement.
Well, if there is an error log then it shall show up, not be hidden on the 7th floor in the 15th broom closet.
What I really can't stand is when there's just always the same old bland crash announcement with no real information about the reasons in there. I mean, what would it really take to state "Failed upon calling uebercombobulator.dll"? The fact that Skype often remains running is a clear indicator that they could have done so but didn't.
What's really weird is that I can even make and answer Skype calls as long as I move the error message window to the side. Usually after 3-4 start attempts, like with a recalcitrant engine. If I click anything in the error message of close its windown Skype blitzes off.
Some will say that there is no such conference in progress. Others say "Placing you in the conference" or so and then I get an email or cell call "Hey, where are you?".
On the bright side, you might end up with a new barbecue recipe :-)
We are willing to pay and it won't have to be HD. In fact, mostly it's about sharing documents, pointing things out in there. But it should let everyone of a group be the host without charging each one of them. After all, even in a hotel venue they don't charge extra because I took over as moderator after the other guy caught the flu.
Doesn't work. There are sometimes people who just don't have a web connection at that particular moment. In some area you can be lucky if you get a phone line with better than 10dB SNR. Other times, like on some not so customer-friendly airports, you have to pay lots of bucks to become member of some network, else no web access.
Those are the two that have behaved the worst here.
I actually have used web conferencing quite a bit. Except for Webex and Skype they've all worked well. To my utter surprise even Adobe Connect worked flawlessly, which I hadn't expected because their Acrobat Reader is behaving so poorly. But ... same thing, if the guys aren't always available and sp everyone has to be able to host it's arond $50/month per host. Too much right now.
In our group punctuality is a given. If someone can't make it the rest of the gruoup knows before the meeting. So the meetings always start exactly on the hour.
Doubtful that's going to happen. I've gone through many lengthy layout sessions using web conferencing. Nothing is faster when optimizing a layout with a group that is scattered across thousands of miles. "That inductor 20% north-east, turn that 90 degrees and re-route the blue trace, that'll fix the coupling".
Such messages usually mean that the program has performed an invalid operation (access violation, non-existent memory, etc.), or has violated some internal constraint. It could give you details, but you'd be none the wiser.
Yep. It also wants Java, Javascript, and plug-in installation enabled. Yeah, I'll admit it's a problem.
I haven't seen many Skype crashes recently. About 12-18 months ago, there was an update foulup that affected a few of customers that required a total purge of Skype followed by a reinstallation. That seemed to have fixed the problem. Ignore the last step where you reinstall your settings and personal info. It's better to start from scratch.
Microsoft: What to you want to reinstall today?
As for error messages, I was partly responsible for what I considered humorous, and some others considered insulting, error messages in an undisclosed software product. What I learned from the experience was that many users don't want to see any error messages. For them, it work, or it doesn't, and they just call someone to fix it if it doesn't. On the other end of the scale are the geeks that want connection progress logging, continuous performance monitoring, with debugging down to the lowest level possible. I'm in between, where I want applications sanity checking, library version verification, and human readable (and editable) config files. Moral: There's no way you're going to make everyone happy.
Modular code. One thread had crashed while the others continue to operate. I've run my Unix and Linux boxes for weeks with hung processes that can't be killed and SNMP error traps that won't shut up.
Weird. That's not what I see with Webex and Skype. It usually asks permission of the conference owner or originator for a new user to be added. If configured as a webinar (event) instead of a conference, it will admit anyone without interrupting. I think you can create a numerical limit to the number of participants, but I don't recall if that's available in all version. Try it: Hmmm... won't play without Java enabled. Sigh.
Yes, that makes sense. As I mumbled, there are various billing systems, each with their merits and potential complications. I suspect Webex likes the flat rate model, where each monthly billing is identical, making it easier for the customer to estimate their expenses and not deliver any surprise overcharges. Others prefer a more adjustable billing system to allow the customer to deal with uneven usage schedules.
I have to deal with the ever changing shared documents, schematics, layouts, test plans, schedules, photos, and sketches. We gave up trying to do it in real time. I would get an email with a bunch of links included pointing to our Dropbox account. I would pickup the documents, apply the markups using various programs, and upload the changes to an "inbox" under the same account. While this does not allow for the alleged productivity found in brainstorming sessions, it works best for me, as I do my best original thinking in some rather odd places.
Do you really need the real time sharing of documents, as in a whiteboard, or can you live with a delay that actually allow the participants to think instead of blurting out their initial thoughts with little time for careful analysis?
All those are also death to web conferencing, which requires a substantial upload bandwidth. My 1500/384 Kbits/sec DSL line is marginal for interactive video. Anything less would be fatal. I suggest you consider a method that accommodates these internet challenged participants, such as a rented a hotel meeting room with good bandwidth. If none of these are available, an RPV dropping a package might be the most efficient.
They work for me, but I'm now a very light weight user. Some of the others look like they might be worth trying. Unfortunately, I can't be much help with alternatives as I've only tried a few, and uninstalled them after the initial testing.
Like I said. Bandwidth costs money. You could save some money by hosting your own web conference server on a server farm using either a rented server or a virtual server. Install someones conference reflector software and watch your bandwidth usage. Some service providers offer unlimited monthly bandwidth, so this might actually work until they throttle you (to protect their services):
Amazing.
EMC compliance tweaking? I can see where a live conference would be useful for that. I do much the same thing over the (VoIP) telephone with a copy of the layout and schematic (delivered via Dropbox) on the screen. No need to see talking heads in order to get that done. The only problem is someone says "Move R17 over to the right slightly" and I spend 5 minutes trying to just find R17 on the PCB. Yeah, real time might be worthwhile, but I still contend that it can be done effectively without the expense and bandwidth requirements of real time video conferencing.
If I find anything useful or interesting, I'll send it your way.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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