Web meeting services, which one is good and most of all simple?

You should check out FuzeBox.

they work great on mobile and don't require Java. They tweet under @fuzebox and have great customer service! Hope this helps

Thanks! Now that looks like a promising service. Doesn't need IE and no Java. Best of all they have a sort of "scholarship" for start-ups (FuzeFund).

So I've sent this to the CEO now.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Have you actually asked users what they want? I was thinking very much along your line of thinking, until I decided to actually ask. What I got was what I described. Most users don't want to see anything if the program barfs. They just want it to work and consider an error message a sign of failure. Incidentally, the more detailed the error message and remedial instructions, the bigger the failure. While this is admittedly overly simplified thinking, it's one of the major reasons that both MS and Apple have dumbed down their error messages. Elaborate error messages scare the hell out of the GUM (great unwashed masses).

Some programs actually do that. It doesn't seem to work, as nobody seems to be interested in helping the software authors fix what is perceived to be *THEIR* problems. Even "click here to send debugging mumbo-jumbo to the developers" tends to get minimal responses. What seems to work is checking a box during installation that indicates that you approve of sending debugging junk to the developers in order to improve the quality of their product. Expecting users to do anything helpful is wishful thinking.

Not really when you consider the alternative of having the entire machine roll over and die at the first sign of a minor error. I would prefer it would limp along as best it can, even with a big chunk of RAm permanently allocated to a dead process, than a panic and reboot. A good analogy would be having a blow out in one tire on a vehicle. I would much prefer to have the car continue to roll on 3 wheels than to have the car quit just because one tire is gone.

Even when (and if) Oracle eventually fixes Java? It's not like Java is going to disappear overnight.

What I usually do in such debates is to calculate the cost of providing a similar service using rented bandwidth and rack space. My guess(tm) is that depending on usage, $50 will be rather cheap for the necessary bandwidth. Based on the numbers from: The required bandwidth can be as high a 500Kbits/sec per session, times two if you run full duplex video. So, what does 1Mbits/sec cost these days? I dunno and I'm not going to dig out the cost of an OC-192 right now (because I'm late for dinner). Maybe later.

I'm jealous. My first guess on things that I'm intimately familiar with is usually right. My first guess on things I know little about is usually wrong. I can compensate for my lack of experience by extensive reading, Googling, and simulations, all of which take time.

Incoming video probably works just fine. So does audio both ways. However, I have my doubts about the outgoing video at 128Kbits/sec. That seems awful low outgoing bandwidth. Is that all your ISP offers or are you being throttled due to a crappy phone line?

On the Skype problems, I previously posted instructions on how to rip the monster out of the system and registry. Then reinstall from scratch and it should (hopefully) be better.

Well, if you're desperate, you could just patch the audio from a conference line into your computers audio system, mix well, and serve to the rest of the participants. There are better ways to do this, but for those that can only get a POTS or cellular voice connection, it should be adequate.

I think you might find the politics interesting. Microsoft bought Skype for $8.5 bazillion dollars without a clue as to how to sell the service or generate a profit. I don't want to get into detail, but VoIP profits are generated in the tiny fraction of a penny difference between wholesale bandwidth costs and per minute charges. There are an awfully large number of minutes involved, so the numbers can potentially become huge. However, small mistakes can also expand into huge dollar losses. MicroSloth hasn't learned this yet, and may be trying to use it's traditional method of (almost) giving away the product in the hope that the competitors will roll go broke competing with a nearly free service. We may soon see how well that works after MS decides to stop diluting the numbers by mixing the Skype financials in as part of their Entertainment and Devices division numbers.

I forgot about that. That's another time burner for those without autofocus cameras. About half the time, the product is out of focus. We do MUCH better using video from a digital camera or DSLR both of which have autofocus.

Yep. That's one of the benefits of doing meetings in real time. I'm just questioning whether it's worth the hassle as compared to using email and Dropbox.

Good, supported, cheap. Pick any two.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

what if it's the oil filter that blows out?

--
?? 100% natural 

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

It was built in England?

No need. The English cars just drip the oil out.

--

-T.

Enough oil to supply the requirements of every plane that flew over Europe during W.W. II! ;-)

Overpressure bypass valve activation due to a clogged filter or total oil pressure failure? You can go quite a while on dirty oil. You won't get very far with no oil.[1]

It's also a single point of failure. They should have designed in some redundancy or a backup system as in aircraft. Rolling to a stop due to lack of oil pressure is not a tragedy. Falling out of the sky due to the same problem is somewhat more serious.

Auto manufacturers never seem to miss an opportunity to create a situation that will sell a new vehicle. Loss of oil pressure should stop the engine to prevent fatal seizing. To the best of my limited knowledge, this is not being done, even on high end vehicles. It would be sooooo easy, but I can't even find aftermarket modifications that do this. If you somehow lose the oil filter, you quickly turn the engine into a recycling candidate.

What I was ranting about is that errors can be classified by severity. One size does not fit all situations. A hung process is a minor problem. Even a kernel fault can be tolerated to some degree. Detected memory errors can simply restart processes. There's no need to stop the world just because of some minor error or event.

[1] In my previous vehicle (Isuzu Trooper), I was merrily driving along when the oil pressure lamp came on and stayed on. I immediately killed the engine to prevent self-destruction. I wasn't going to have it towed to a shop before determining the cause. I soon discovered that I still had oil pressure, but that the oil pressure sensor was clogged with tar and stuck. To get to a place where I could find solvent and compressed air, I had to drive a few miles with the oil pressure lamp lite still lit. I was lucky that I could determine the culprit, but anyone of lesser diagnostic abilities could easily have come to the wrong conclusion, and blown their engine. For them, killing the engine on zero indicated oil pressure would be a good idea.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Yes. That used to be part of my job especially in the med biz. It is still my job in self-employment. One of the questions on my list for the first architecture meeting is about error indicators.

Because they usually are :-)

The effect of such dumbing down is often a backfiring. Grandson tries to fix aunt Brunhilde's computer, sees numerous meaningless error messages, says to her that the software (or the whole computer) is junk and she should return it for a refund, then get one that works. No joke, this has happened in our neighborhood. The whole computer was returned and they bought a new one, which successfully connected them to the Internet (that's all they wanted).

I think we may live in different worlds. I (and pretty much everyone I know) tend to call if some important or expensive piece of software doesn't work. The service guys at the other end of the phone line often become rather desperate when error messages are bland and non-informative. Because then they can't diagnose. I've had them say things like "Wow, we've never seen that one before" or exclaiming "I can't believe this is happening!".

Except you may get into a major crash if that blown 4th tire shreds up and locks up some stuff that was supposed to remain moving.

Fixing ... trusting a fix, two very different things :-)

If a web site wants Java I just move on.

Again, then how does Skype do it for $4.99? AFAIK that is the non-ad-supported plan where this payment becomes the only revenue source for them. After a year it pop to maybe arlund $10 or so, still not $50.

The challenge is to bring whatever your first guess is over to the folks at the other location. Without live desktop sharing that can be quite cumbersome when dealing with complicated matter (like a switcher layout).

I'll have to call them again on this but the line to the next box is rather long. But I do not need to broadcast a ballgame in HD, the display of my desktop (but mostly that of others who need my advice) is what's needed. For example, I have recently coached a team of mechanical engineers to use an oscilloscope for the first time in their life, diagnosing a fairly tricky timing issue across roughly 1000 miles. It worked, and fast.

I've done that. It no work :-(

Sure, if necessary I will do that.

Hmm, that would explain it. But not quite, because there are other services that MS doesn't own that offer a simlar price range. For example, Fuzebox was pointed out by one participant in this thread and their basci service starts at $15/mo (if you don't need mobile hosting).

Actually. CAD software doesn't need a DSLR camera :-)

I got an Olympus PEN camera plus adapter so I can use my classic Rokkor lenses. Works great but no auto-focus. Doing it by hand is often better anyhow because the autofocus can't possibly know when what I want in focus. What irks me is that such modern cameras don't have a high-pass focus helper. It would be so easy but ...

Dropbox is nice but too slow for that. Went through this very exercise yesterday around 10:30am. The file was 12MB so we had to discuss the next topic and then go back once it had made it into the PDF reader of all the others.

Doesn't have to be cheap. $50/mo is ok, but should allow switching saddles with the host account holder because of frequent travel. We can't buy four accounts at a grand total of $200/mo just because of that. At least not in this start-up phase.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

That depends. Had that happen in front of me except it was your example of a blown tire. Happily motoring eastbound on the San Francisco Bay Bridge ... *KAPOW* ... now where the heck did that come from ... saw the little Chevy Aveo in front of me swerving a bit, then stopping. There are _no_ emergency lanes and San Franciscans always seem to be in a hurry. Woman stepped out, me too, tire had begun to shred dangerously. There was no way she could get to safety across the bridge with that. She looked scared. We had to cross five lanes of traffic (with very impatient city drivers) to get off the left-turn exit onto Treasure Island.

That was one of the most scary moments I ever had on an Interstate.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Don't fret, Jake, it's Californica ;-)

No breakdown lanes??? ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Not on the Bay Bridge. The new span has some AFAIR but this was on the old part that hasn't been replaced yet.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I thought breakdown lanes were a requirement to get Federal Interstate funds?

Aha! Californica prefers to tax their own >:-} ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On bridges, too? AFAIR the old span of the (long) Carquinez Bridge doesn't have them either.

You have to pay between $4-$6 at each bridge depending on time of day, but usually only in one direction. Incomes in the Bay Area must be pretty high because commuting is so expensive. Anyhow, no ten horses will get me to live there.

--
Regards, Joerg 

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

He should experience having a hood slam into the windshield at 55 MPH on I-75 in Cincinnati at rush hour.

Then have it built in China and assembled with 'Undocmented Mexicans'.