usenet weirdness

Feb 09, 2026 Last reply: 3 months ago 1177 Replies

My understanding of time begins with MAN AND TIME by Priestley. Although it's intellectually imprudent to excerpt a single sentence to summarize his survey:

"One metaphysical idea of Time: We do not discover Time but bring it with us; it is one of our contributions to the scene; our minds work that way."

Shadbolt shares similar sentiments:

Could Einstein's definition of time have been one of the greatest hindrances to the advancement of human knowledge that history has ever known?

About Time: Einstein Was Wrong

Discussions about how to define 'time' inevitably become philosophical debates. As I've noted previously, 'everybody knows what time is until they try to define it'. For the framework of this article, let's limit our discussion about time to looking at Einstein's definition of time in special relativity and contrasting that with the understanding of time in quantum mechanics.

In special relativity, Einstein defined time simply as a measure of how long an event takes, as measured by a clock. This is a sensible, straightforward measure. For example, the time it took me to read the previous paragraph, measured by a stopwatch, was 10 seconds. In special relativity, clocks are used as an objective standard for measuring the time intervals of physical processes.

The problem is that this sensible measure of time becomes time itself.

For example, if an atomic clock is observed to slow down (it registers fewer oscillations of the caesium atom at a different altitude), this is not understood as a change in the clock's operating speed. In relativity, this slowing is interpreted as a slowing in the rate of time itself.

... this mistaken interpretation commits an error that Sir Isaac Newton warned us against in his Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica.

Newton wrote, 'Relative quantities are not the quantities themselves whose names they bear, but sensible measures of them.. and by the names time, space, place, and motion their sensible measures are to be understood; and the expression will be unusual if the measured quantities themselves are meant. ..those violate the accuracy of language, who interpret these words for the measured quantities.'

Putting this concept into the modern context, even when the motion of light in a vacuum is used as the standard 'clock' to measure time, it is still just a physical entity that can be influenced by other physical processes, known or unknown. This was Einstein's biggest mistake; he employed a physical process (the motion of light) to serve as a stand-in for time itself. In Newton's words, he expressed a sensible measure of time as time itself.

French philosopher Henri Bergson, a contemporary of Einstein, disputed relativity's portrayal of time by arguing that there is a difference between time itself and what clocks display. Clocks display arbitrary fractions of periodic events such as the motion of the Sun across the sky (as shown on a sundial), grains of sand moving through an hourglass, the number of swings of a pendulum, or the number of oscillations of a caesium atom (the current standard), but this is not the physical reality of time itself. The physical reality of time is the standard against which we can compare these events.

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You cannot understand Physics as natural philosophy anymore. We have grown out of such thinking about 300 years ago (Newton).

They are obviously clueless:

No. This statement betrays a fundamental misconception about special relativity already.

An event does not "take time": It is a *point* of a spacetime. A point has dimension *zero*, it has *no extent*.

Even more fun.

"Flame war" and "science" might turn out to be different things.

John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics

Prove Priestley wrong. Use your best rhetoric to define Time in your own words.

Learn how to quote; indeed, learn how *to post*. (One quotes only the relevant minimum of the precursor, the parts that one directly refers to. One posts only to relevant newsgroups. When crossposting, one ought to set Followup-To to the one, most relevant newsgroup.)

As to Priestley:

*facepalm*

,-

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| | John Boynton Priestley (/ˈpriːstli/; 13 September 1894 – 14 August 1984) | was an English novelist, playwright, screenwriter, broadcaster and social | commentator.[1]

He was NOT a physicist, not even a scientist. His understanding of time is

*irrelevant* (with regard to this discussion).

F'up2 sci.physics.relativity

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Your rhetorical arguments are above average, almost awesome!

Drop your ad hominem attacks and prove Priestley wrong. Use your best rhetoric to define Time in your own words.

That's getting philosophical, some physicsts have that their philosophy is that they're deaf-mute about philosophy, and we are too.

Philosophers of physics philosophy of physics isn't that, though.

A usual idea distinguishing philosophy and science is that science starts with a theory and philosophy ends with one.

*PLONK*

F'up2 poster

Get well soon.

For once a statement by you which is NOT word salad, and with which I fully agree.

In fact, the idea that a theory about Nature does not stand on its own, merely because an "eminent" philosopher has formulated it or it sounds convincing or is internally logically consistent; but that it needs to be

*tested* against Nature, so it needs to be *testable*, and thus *falsifiable* -- it needs to make *quantifiable* statements so that it can be tested by *measurements* -- was what eventually separated natural *science* from natural *philosophy* since Newton's "Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica" (1687) -- "The *Mathematical* Principles of Natural Philosophy" (emphasis mine).

But you don't know enough about science to be in a position to make any kind of distinction. Science is about observable phenomena, and flame wars are personal abuse, but your idea of science accommodates climate change denial propaganda which depends on misrepresenting observed phenomena, to belittle people who present them correctly.

But special relativity got superseded by general relativity in 1915.

It threw in gravitational effects, which turn out to significant, and mess up real clocks in what turns out to be perfectly predictable (and location dependent) ways.

Einstein wrote something like 'time is what clocks say'.

And I had rejected this idea, because it would in effect exchange the natural phenomenon with the reading of a measuring device.

I regard physical quantities as attributes of some system or object, while emasuring devices as man-made objects, which belong to the realm of the observer.

TH

If nothing synchronizes remote systems, then how could we rightfully assume, that remote systems share the same time?

The nearest star to Earth is about three light-years away.

Inbetween Earth and proxima Centaury we have essentially nothing.

So, what would hinder the time in Proxima Centaury to run backwards?

TH

...

Didn't you know, that Antarctica is REALLY cold?

How could any sane person assume, that the Ice-sheet on top of Antarctica or Greenland would eventually melt?

The floating ice doesn't count, of course, because floating ice does not change sea levels, once it melts.

But sea-levels do actually fall slowly. That can be seen around the globe at almost any location you like.

For instance: the Sahara desert was once the bottom of an ocean, hence global sea-levels had dropped significantly in respect to former sea-floor areas.

We can also watch sea-levels dropping in connection with the low level islands in the Pacific, because they are mostly atolls. And an atoll is build from remains of corals and corals are animals, which live in the sea.

Since the corals are not supposed to fly above sea-levels (to build the atolls), the sea-levels have fallen in geological times.

Before the ice-sheets of Antarctican and Greenland could eventually melt, they need to become a lot wormer than their roughly minus 60° Celsius.

TH

But clocks can make much more accurate and finer-grained observations than any merely human observer ever could.

Time is what clocks observe - for us - and in that sense Einstein is absolutely correct. We've still got to read the clock before it's measurements mean anything.

Rhetoric and words have no physical meaning. What is physical is precisely that which does not depend on the words used to talk about it,

Jan

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I sympathise with your plight.

Jan

Well, possibly causality is violated on cosmic scale.

What we regard as obvious and simply proven fact is mainly based upon our own experience and than upon our main place of being here on planet Earth.

But what happens in the entire universe is essentially unknown. Possibly our intuition is totally wrong, because we have no knowledge about how time behaves in the rest of the universe.

I personally think, that time isn't universal, but only local.

Other places have also local time, but that time could be different, if such remote locations have no causality connection with us.

I think, that 'backwards time' is actually a necessity in cosmology, because that would allow to balance the content of the universe.

TH

It's a very convenient assumption.The big bang theory has the universe starting to expand from a very small point some 13.8 billion years ago, and what we can see of the observable universe is consistent with that.

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there's not a lot matter there, a couple if hundred atoms per cubic centimeter, but that's not nothing.

It's a main sequence star, and we'd see the consequences of heavier elements decomposing back into hydrogen and sucking up energy in the process - what we are seeing at the moment is what was happening there three years ago, and it doesn't look like that.

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