The Right PCB House

Very frowned upon in industry and (usually) off limits in medical. It's like printing out a picture, editing it with white-out and scanning it back in. You typically lose the documentation trail. IOW your original CAD file no longer matches the product.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

. o

ive the

I have had great luck with Eagle +

Chris

I've gotten 4-layer from Sierra (no-touch service) and the boards and the service were good.

If you had more time I'd also consider custompcb (cheap, in Malaysia, quality is acceptable but not great) and batchpcb (cost effective for small boards or small runs, good quality, long lead times).

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Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/

I have had good experiences with

but I have only done 2 layer boards in small quantities. For low price and moderate quantities, I have used a company in China: I received the boards within 8 days of actually placing the order, and they were quick to respond to questions by email. The only real problem I had was that I had specified 2 oz copper, and when I did a voltage drop text on a critical high current track it was the equivalent of 1 oz. They have promised to correct that on my next order, which I will be placing soon.

I had to make a completely new design based on my testing of the ones they did, not because of any fault on their part, and I am fairly confident that the next order will be OK. I was able to get 108 pieces of 1" x 2" boards, panelized and scored, for about $140 including FedEx from China. Even having to scrap the first order, I am still saving several hundred dollars over almost any other source.

I would rather buy from and support local vendors, but with such a huge price differential, I can pass some of my savings on to my customers. And I have a feeling that some of the so-called "local" vendors may actually farm the jobs to Chinese or East European fab houses, and just operate as middlemen, which does not do all that much for domestic economy. I can save

100 local customers $3 each, or I can make one local company richer by $300.

Paul

The Q was "why the rush"?

Give at least one good reason...

Quote "However, reliability of leaded Maxim Integrated Products parts are not guaranteed at higher reflow temperature (above 240°C). Some reference sources show data that define a reduction in solder joint reliability by as much as 33% less than Eutectic solder joints when lead and lead-free metallurgies are mixed."

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

And you assumed we don't use Orcad here. (which we do). Some boards are so simple you don't really need schematic capture.

And No, I merely pointed out you could get the Gerber files for extra money. I did not opine on whether that was better. Only that technically, one was not "locked into" ExpressPCB's layout (not schematic capture) program.

The utility of this is quite obvious. One could, without investing in expensive professional layout software, design, build and test their widgets. Once perfected, (and assuming they have the need to), can spend the additional $60 or so to acquire the Gerber files which would then allow them to shop PCB fabrication offshore (or domestically at a non- prototype outfit), at substantial savings.

I agree ExpressPCB software is not the best, but you get what you pay for.

To the other poster: Yes. If you make any changes, it's another $60 (or whatever their current rate is). Also, you have to order the Gerbers at the same time you place your PCB order. (So you can't try the boards out first, and then order the Gerbers later. You would have to make a 2nd board order.)

I never said this situation was ideal. Only that if you had to have the Gerbers after the fact (to competitively shop, for instance), it can and has been done.

-mpm

==========================================================================

If you have a design so simple that schematic capture is not necessary, you can do the layout using a drafting CAD program, like TurboCAD, which can be obtained on eBay and discount resellers for less than $50, and will have many other uses.

But I can't imagine anything other than a really trivial circuit not having a corresponding schematic. And if the circuit is fairly simple, with something like 20-30 components and a couple hundred connections, you can get the evaluation version of PADS from

for the price of a very long download, or request it on CD or DVD. I used their evaluation software before I purchased it, and I "tricked" it into allowing me to complete the board, by making all similar components identical, and then populating the board with different values when it was made.

Also, for some of our very simple boards, we have used Atlas Circuits, who make single and double sided boards (no plated through holes) in small quantities at very reasonable prices. There is a set-up charge of about $10-$25 based on board size and number of holes, and then the boards are about $2 to $5 each. You send the artwork printed out 1:1, 2:1, or whatever, with a drill drawing. I found their ad originally in Nuts and Volts magazine. They don't have a website, but you can email him at Atlas At ConnInc Daht Komm (I hope I munged that sufficiently).

There are probably other local shops that do this sort of prototype work. For many boards, especially for thru-hole components that can be soldered on both sides, this is a viable alternative. You can etch them and drill them yourself, too, but I find it is worth paying a few dollars and waiting a few days especially if it is more than a one-up project.

Paul

.com/), even if you don't end up going with them for

ncy.

Pro

I made the

would like to receive the

=20

Don't mix up ExpressPCB and PCB Express. The latter is a division of=20 Sunstone, which builds boards in Mulino, Oregon. Sunstone gives me good=20 boards and I live close enough that the free UPS ground shipping gets me=20 boards the day after shipment. Sunstone also has their own free PCB=20 suite, PCB123.=20

I now order all my PCBs from Sunstone, so I'm a biased reporter. I've=20 been a fan of theirs since their customer service techs helped me=20 through some problems with an older, low-cost layout suite. They're=20 still helping me through some problems with bigger 4-layers boards since I've converted to PADS.

Mark Borgerson

Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing. They are all lock-in-ware. Their output is NOT portable between fab houses. None of them produce Gerbers.

Jeff - your information is incorrect. For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file. I know this from first hand experience. (The others mentioned also might, but I can't say)

I also concur that it is not the best approach if you do enough boards to justify "better" schematic capture / PCB layout software (i.e., in- house). But if you want to port the boards to production fabrication (offshore), you certainly can obtain Gerbers from ExpressPCB.

-mpm

Thank you for interpolating my post. I assure you that was not necessary.

I repeat: This "free" software does not *PRODUCE* Gerbers. If you use it, you are LOCKED IN to a single fab house.

What I am saying is that to call itself an ECAD Package, software should be able to generate Gerbers ON ITS OWN.

What you are describing meets the classic definition of CRIPPLEWARE.

I did NOT say there was no way to PURCHASE Gerbers. ...AND PAY *AGAIN* AFTER THE SLIGHTEST CHANGE.

If that's what YOU want, fine. Full disclosure for the other folks is another thing. Most people want to know what the cards up the sleeve are. . . ...and it appears you STILL haven't read this:

*-link+*-Reply-at-the-bottom-*-*-*+DO-NOT+More.Options+blockquoting+other.people's.sigs+weird-looking.posts

If the ExpressPCB package was really top-notch, and offered for free, I could understand them locking you in without Gerbers. But I seem to remember it was mostly a drafting package that had very limited capabilities compared to (of course) PADS, but there were other free or very inexpensive packages that had better capabilities and actually created Gerbers.

I tried to check pricing from PCBexpress, and I got this:

"Warning: mysql_pconnect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2) in /home/pcbexpress.com/html/products/utls.inc.php on line 25 We're sorry...please try this process again later."

I'd like to compare them to pcbfabexpress. I guess I'll "try again later".

Paul

Jeff - What is your problem? You gave out bad info. I corrected it. Get over it.

I personally used ExpressPCB, got the boards exactly the way I wanted them, then turned around and got the Gerbers from ExpressPCB (for an additional $60), and then proceeded to shop the high-volume production boards overseas. (Using those same Gerbers).

So, explain how I was "locked-in". ?????

I am not so interested in correcting your statements (interpolating or whatever), nor am I that interested in the nuance argument as to whether the ExpressPCB directly produces a Gerber output (which I never claimed, but you invented).

My only purpose here was to correct the post, so that other's could rely on the right information as they make their choices. I also did not opine on whether the ExpressPCB route was any better or worse, or less expensive than having your own high(er)-end program in house, such as Orcad or whatever.

The bottom line is ExpressPCB can indeed (eventually) result in a Gerber file that you can port between fabricators. This statement is in direct contravention to your earler remark that:

And I quote:

Have a nice day.

-mpm

I would have just bought my own software.

There is plenty of free stuff and paid for packages.

There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.

Nothing that's at the same level of quality/utility as, e.g., Altium, Pulsonix, PADS, or even Eagle is "a few pounds."

Joel Koltner wrote:

I thought I recognized that rap. Yup, I called it.

Heee's baaack. (Marra, aka cadman, aka Nigel Wright, aka...)

A few pounds of what?

--

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account:

Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep.

Sheesh. What a strange man; he seems intelligent enough yet completely unable or unwilling to conduct himself in a reasonably respectable manner...