Switching Circuit

Don't know about the us, but that's the way it's been done in the uk since the dawn of electric light. Usually a 3 insulated wire connection between the two switches, but often plain twin and earth. The 'earth' carrying the 3rd circuit with pvc sleeves slipped on at both ends...

Regards,

Chris

ChrisQ Inscribed thus:

I agree that its been done that way forever. However its still against regs in the UK to use twin & earth where the uninsulated earth wire is live at any time. Four wire cable with three insulated wires are required or just three insulated if earth linkage is not used. Not that anybody bothers to check it !

The only guess was yours, where you guessed that the three wires are hot, neutral and ground, and stated that as if it were fact. I mentioned 2 alternate possibilities - not guesses - to demonstrate that the wires are not necessarily hot, neutral and ground as you stated. Finally, I offered a possible solution if, indeed, the wires are hot, neutral and ground and the ground wire is insulated. None of what I posted was guessing, and I apologize if it created that impression.

Ed

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I was discussing code conformant installations. I stated such. If you wish to discuss non-conforming installations that is your choice. Personally, i advise conforming installations for the multitude of safety reasons that the code was written about.

Only OP knows what is truly in the ground.

Then you don't know the code. Both situations I mentioned - metalic conduit providing the egc or GFCI feed without egc - are code conforming.

Ed

So how many wires must you have to comply with NEC?

Surely NEC does not allow the use of relays for this!

Can't switch hot side to bulb threads in a light bulb cleat.

And if outlets and light circuits can not share a hot line or neutral then can they share the ground wire?

I count 5 wires and a ground.

HELL of a cable to run to a GARAGE!

That's a lot of copper!

minimum?

Even an X10 module would violate NEC if the lights are on the same hot as the outlets, only eliminates one #14 wire.

Running that one more wire would be cheaper and X10 modules are a maintenance liability.

Garage door opener would push #12's to #10 wire, right?

Fluorescent Lights are nice in garages but they're a nightmare if you get freezing weather.

So what are people going to use in Garages when incandescents are outlawed in favor of flourescent ""light bulbs""?

Among the new fluorescent ""light bulbs"" I found a flourescent flood light.

Totally worthless in Northern US states in the winter time.

Not a mere convenience because severe weather is NOT a time to have such a failure.

There's no mention of this problem on the product.

How will the Californa mentality green weenies resolve this little problem for over 25% of the USA?

BTW, one solution for flourescents that won't light in the cold is to LEAVE THEM ON! HORRORS!

Tell me there's some magic to these new fluorescents to overcome this [ not too small ] problem!

There are two problems with fluorescent lights in cold climate, one is starting and the other is low light output. There are at least full sized fluorescent tubes that are intended to start at temperatures below -30 C.

Using a well insulated light fixture will allow the tube to start at a low intensity and gain normal intensity after a few minutes when the tube has reached nominal operating temperature due to the losses of the tube itself (and electronics). Of course, using this light fixture on a hot summer day will increase the internal temperature too high, again reducing the light output and reduce the lifetime of the electronics.

At least here above 60 N where the winter day is short, there is not much point in turning some out door light for the day. Of course some low power (less than 5 W) should be used. Such a low power light source will give sufficient light when switching on a high power fluorescent light or HPS lamp and waiting for the full luminous output for a few minutes.

Paul

Even in relaively warm Atlanta,Georgia, the local Home Depot carries outdoor fluorescent lights that work to -5 F.

The least power wasting option I've found is to use a LED bulb to provide minimal lighting while waiting for a fluorescent (or CFL - some of them are slow even at 70 F).

I have a fixture in the front entry that will accept two bulbs. There's a CFL in one socket and a 2 watt LED bulb in the other. The LED bulb provides instant response to the light switch and keeps people from flipping the switchrepeatedly because the CFL takes a half-second or more to produce noticeable light.

John

I didn't think GFCI w/o ground was conforming for new construction, rather only for existing structures without grounds and only in certain circumstances.

Right. For new construction, wiring must include an egc. That applies whether or not GFCI will be installed. GFCI w/o ground for existing structures without grounds conforms in all cases, not just certain circumstances, unless the code specifically prohibits it. I don't know of any specific prohibition to GFCI residential g.p. receptacle and lighting circuits. Maybe there's something in the 2008 code - my book is 2005.

Ed

New construction requires neutral, hot and ground (egc) conductors. Metallic raceway is allowed for the egc, so the minimum _wire_ count for any circuit is 2; minimum _conductor_ count is 3. The minimum for the OP's question if it were new construction and to be done with standard wiring is 2 travelers, hot, neutral and egc. If X10 were used, then hot, neutral and egc is the minimum.

Older existing circuits that do not have an egc that were compliant with the code when installed are grandfathered.

The NEC does not prohibit relays.

Receptacles and lights can and do share all of those.

That's the way to wire the OP's situation if it was new construction: hot, neutral, egc and 2 travellers between

Not bad in new construction, where you have to dig anyway. It's just two runs of uf - easy. But with an open trench it would be foolhardy not to plan for the future - you might put some REAL cable in that trench if plans included using the garage as a shop with some heavy duty power machines. :-)

That doesn't work. Your switch circuit would be the #14, and it needs 2 conductors. The power circuit is the #12 and it needs the hot, neutral and ground conductor. Again, this applies to new construction. The OP's situation can be fixed differently.

No, the X10 solution is compliant.

House | Garage ---Hot---------+--[X10]----+ | | | Recpt--+----Light | | | ---Neutral------+-----------+ | ---egc---------------+

The X10 controller on the house side can be plugged in anywhere*; the X10 switch on the garage side must be installed in series with the hot feed to the light. I don't recall if the X10 switch needs to connect to neutral or not.

• = if the X10 is plugged into a circuit on the opposite phase a bridge may be needed.

No way. They don't draw much current at all, maybe 3 amps as a guess.

Ed

The "certain circumstances" was meant to include residential single-structure applications. I was going to say residential but there may be conforming commercial applications or residential applications (like out-buildings or new installations in existing structures, which would seem to cover this thread) where it's not allowed. "Certain circumstances" left a "certain amount" of wiggle room. ;-)

There is no reason to specifically indicate a ground needed for the older systems when installing a GFCI because, with out a working ground, the GFCI isn't going to work. And a non working GFCI is not up to code.

This will be evident when the building inspector plugs their GFCI tester in the receptacle and presses the test button to see nothing tripping after a home upgrade has been done. Of course, not every one has their handy work inspected. The insurance companies love this because when the investigator goes through the ashes, looking at the remains (which they are good at), they'll most likely find this and void part or, if not, all of your claim, even if wasn't the cause of the fire. Of course, you can fight this if the police and fire department has strong evidence of arson or something of that matter.

We have older systems through out the plant on the machines that have no egc(earth) in the wire way/pipe how ever, most if not all end point boxes are mounted on equipment which are grounded to the system ground and there for, make a suitable working ground for a GFCI device.

Any new installs, reallocations or add on's requires it to be brought up to code.

The NEC code book was intended for those that know and understand the the field, not as a teaching tool for those learning.

Think of it as a regulation book, not a teaching tool.

ehsjr: This wasn't intended for you, but for a general read for every one else's interest. I'm sure you're quit savvy in this respect.

Are you really in the competition for this year's DimBulb award? In short: Bullshit!

More bullshit.

Which you do doubt specified. What an idiot!

Lets you out, obviously.

How is so much garbage of interest to anyone? What a moron.

It's no wonder that his parents named him Maynard. :(

In , Greegor wrote in part:

The 2012/2014 USA "bans" of incandescents have exceptions that I consider to be a set of loopholes sufficient to reroute the Mississippi River through:

What I would do is use fluorescent ballasts rated for cold temperatures and compatible 4-foot bulbs in those protective sleeves used in cold temperature duty, or else outdoor-rated CFLs that have outer bulbs over the CFL tubing.

In colder weather, these tend to work, but easily require 5-10 minutes to warm up and then they may be warmed up only most-of-the-way. I would deploy a bit of surplus lighting ability if I had to make major use of fluorescent lighting in far-from-optimum temperatures. Meanwhile, I am very satisfied with the cold-weather performance of Philips SL/O CFLs, especially 18 watt ones.

Over 95% of the population of California has yet to be affected by cold severe enough to be much of a problem for outdoor-rated CFLs and many other CFLs that have outer bulbs over the CFL tubing. Put such CFLs into an an enclosed fixture, let it warm up for 5 or 6 minutes, result is around or over 75% of full light output even if it is cold enough to snow. I have even seen Philips SL/O bare units achieve around or a bit over half of full brightness in single digits degrees F after warming up 6-10 minutes.

Even with San Francisco often being chilly even in early and mid afternoon in July and August, and snow reported in L.A. every several years, mostly in included high elevation points, (more frequently than in SF even including their "Twin Peaks" and "Mount Suttro"), how much, more like how little, of California's population has to deal with so much as a majority of individual years having a single hour colder than 25 F? And I know CFLs that work fairly well in conditions that cold! I mention some of them above.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

GFIs _do_ work in older 2-wire (no egc) homes. At least, one outlet in my kitchen works...after a fashion. Plugging or unplugging my toaster might trip it - sometimes the GFI trips up to 2 seconds after that state change. On rare occasion would it trip on a state change with a waffle iron, or trip when either one is on and working for a while. Never had the guts to see if it would trip if i interposed myself between cold water pipe in nearby sink and either loaded wire..

Is a more-on better than a less-on?