Re: OT: Post Turtle

If you are foolish enough to try and set up the straw man in which you claim that because we can't predict the weather (which is chaotic) more than few days ahead, we can't predict the climate (which is rather more stable) the self-appellation of "fool" is tolerably appropriate, although this is really a question of ignorance, rather than stupidity.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Oh I fully acknowledge all the effects, including your precious non-quantifiable pressure-broadening's contribution of perhaps a pimple overall to some gnat's behind somewhere.

Uninitiated fools like me just don't get how multiplying a series of numbers this loose and raising to some high power produces insight of such clarity, such refinement, of such--dare it be said?--prescience.

Cheers, James Arthur

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Pressure broadening is emminently quantifiable. I don't have access to the stack of expensive equipment required to measure it, or the gas- mixing line required to set up the gas mixtures on which you'd do the measurements, but the measurements themselves are straightforward, if tedious.

Someone must have done them, but I'd have to pay money to dig them out of the peer-reviewed literature (or get the run of a technical university library).

Your problem is merely ignorance, not foolishness as such, but you do seem to unreasonably enthusiastic about maintaining your ignorance about what may be - in a human lifetime or two - a tolerably important subject. There were climate excursions in the geological past that killed off every terrestrial animal bigger than a rabbit, so getting your head around the issue might be seen as due diligence

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

A lot has changed in climate science in the last 20 years -- some older folks don't recognize the change and are still mired in now discredited assumptions. So I honestly think that James and John are in good company, to be honest, if you go back more than three decades. It's no dishonor for folks who don't try to keep up with this rapidly improving area of science to fail to see connections that are now much clearer to active scientists. The discredit comes from knowing one is profoundly ignorant about a subject and yet remaining staunch about reaching far beyond one's grasp all the same.

...

Ha! One more day of volunteer work over! Very enjoyable, too. Lots of good work done today.

Jon

[snip]

So what is it going to be... global warming, global cooling, or what?

I want an _absolute_ projection... since you claim that it's a "science".

Please project three years out.

If you're wrong, I will seek you out and... ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
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On Jun 23, 3:47 pm, James Arthur wrote: [....]

The amount of pressure-broadening can be quantified and can be surprisingly high. In the situation I have to deal with, the IR line width is increased from about 1GHz to over 20GHz by adding N2 at

1000 Torr.

IIRC the number for CO2 is about 5MHz per Torr.

The interesting question with CO2 and H20 is the difference between non-polar and diamagnetic N2 and polar CO2 and H20. I've managed to dig deep enough to learn that there is a difference, but nowhere near deep enough to to put a MHz per Torr (or should that be per millibar for benefit of the climate scientists, or per decipascal to keep the physicists on-side?) on the mutual and self-broadening coefficients of these particular models. I'd be grateful if you could point to a paper that was likely to present this kind of data.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Jim-ever-reliably-out-of-touch-with-reality-Thompson wants an absolute projection three years ahead, otherwise he's going to throw his rattle out of his cot.

Sadly, what the IPCC produces is a lot less specific. Unlke Jim, they don't see much chance of global cooling.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

OK then. The CO2 and H2O correlation and effects on IR transmission have been studied experimentally and theoretically for a long time. And in some important practical applications. To avoid any accusastions of this being just some more researchers jumping on the AGW bandwagon I have picked some military research on IR properties of smoke plumes dating from 1975 (well before AGW was on the agenda).

Offhand I think that is one of the earliest models that got decent agreement between the experiments and theory. It states that ignoring the correlations can lead to errors of between 50% and 2x in the computed radiances in the 2.7um CO2 H2O band (horizontal path at 15km).

I am bit surprised this in in the public domain.

Is that specific enough for you?

It will have been calculated, but I am not going to look it up for you.

No you keep saying. AGW isn't happening, it isn't happening, I'm not listening, I'm not listening. That isn't the same thing at all.

Some of use are trying to educate but you seem to be stubbornly determined to remain wilfully ignorant.

Regards, Martin Brown

** Posted from **

Unfortunately, I have more or less told you everything I know on that subject at this point. I would have to google to find more. My knowledge of the subject isn't from climate issues studies of it.

I wish you good luck on finding it but I remind you there are some here who will be saying there is no global warming as the last penguin bursts into flames.

People have to understand things before they can presume to educate others.

John

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It ought to be. I tried to download a copy, but it isn't available in electronic form (which would have cost me $25 US dollars) and I don't fancy paying them $73 dollars for a paper copy - not so much because that's expensive (though it is) but also because the paper would be a long time in the mail.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

But there are a range of levels of understanding. Martin Brown seems to understand enough to be in position to educate you in this area, if you felt like getting a little more educated.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

I'm surprised to see Jim responding to me at all. I thought I'd been dumped by him some time back and I'd reciprocated in kind without noticed any feeling of loss for it, speaking now in 20/20 hindsight. (We might have shared something with autism, I think, but I've too many battles of my own to worry much about having missed sharing stories with him, even on that account if no other.)

Jon

[snip]

Jon, I actually don't ever recall plonking you.

However I do block Slowman AND all respondents to Slowman's crap.

I only happened to see your reply to Slowman today because I had just done my weekly filter disable to make sure I wasn't catching any "good" guys ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
|                                                                |
|        Vote Barack... Help Make America an Obama-nation        |
|                                                                |
|  Due to excessive spam, googlegroups, UAR & AIOE are blocked!  |

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Jim seems to be off in his own vrtual reality.

I think I've finally worked out why Jim and the other knee-jerk Republicans are so anti Al Gore.

I recently picked up a copy of Al Gore;s "The Assault on Reason" ISBN

978-0-7475-9334-8 (a UK-published version, in paperback) which is a very thorough hatchet job on the current Repubican adminstration.

Al Gore takes a very high moral tone, and includes lots of references to the intentions of the framers of the U.S. constitution, which presumably drives the Republicans up the wall. I'm finding all the worthiness a bit hard going and have only got two thirds of the way through it so far, but some of the incidental detail is fascinating - including the story of the 24-year-old George Deutsch - a Bush political appointee to NASA - who not only had no scientific training, but eventually had to resign when it was revealed that he had never graduated from college at all.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

But what is your conclusion about why Jim is "so anti Al Gore?" You've mentioned that the book dissects the current Bush admin and that Al Gore seems to write like a snob might, and added a note about that NASA guy -- the news story about whom I specifically remember -- but you don't tie this into your original point here about why many folks in the US are so anti-Gore.

I'm kind of interested how it looks from the outside, frankly. I'm mired in the mush here and to me I can identify several important "wedges" of people that make up the whole. But I would really like to know how it looks from an outsider's perspective, someone who doesn't see the tiny wrinkles and so on but who may see some of the broader brush strokes.

Jon

See:

That will when -- appears to be 12/5/06.

I suppose we can both re-enable our mutual filters, then. Not that I want to. I frankly don't like them and I think you are one of four or five such filters I have in place. The only one I have operating in sci.electronics.* and also the only one that is in place because I was told I was being filtered. But there is little point reading another who is openly filtering me.

Jon

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You may not appreciate how much international coverage US politcs gets. Our serious newpapers report US politics in detail.

I think Jim is anti-Gore because he is a committed Republican voter, and Gore is an idealistic, articulate and effective Democratic politician. I imaggine that if Gore were less idealistic and treated the current Republican adminstration as the "honourable opposition" - to use a British phase - he'd upset the Republican-voting clique here a good deal less, but the current adminstration is anything but honourable, and pointing this out does seem to upset their supporters.

Jim himself appears to confuse his administration with his country, and claims to have gone to the trouble of reporting me to the FBI for exhibiting "extreme anti-American behavior" in ths news-group, which should have got him onto their "ignore before reading" list of right- wing fruit-cakes.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen