Questions for Canadians (labor laws)

No, it's easy, but like the UK, Hong Kong etc. with common law there is an implied lopsided responsibility of employer to employee as a lord to a serf. You have to give "sufficient" notice or pay in lieu of notice (except in the case of 'cause', which is difficult and expensive to be able to prove). There's a statutory requirement of one week per year of employment to a maximum of 8 weeks (Ontario), but the actual liability can be 18 months or more in some cases where there is no contract.

No, young low wage people are easy and cheap to get rid of. It's more of a deterrent to hiring older management-level people at high wages without a contract. A contract (except collective bargaining, IIRC) cannot offer *less* than the statutory minimum. This may vary by province, as employment laws are provincial.

There are also some laws that kick in when you want to get rid of a whole bunch of employees all at once (eg. plant closings).

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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There are provincial & federal labour codes, depends on the industry where who fits into each. The provincial ones vary from, obviously, province to province. The federal code is available here-

H.

Is there a corresponding responsibility of an employee not to walk out on an employer when he's needed? One of my engineers walked into my office, said "It's time to move on" and walked out, just like that.

Most serfs couldn't leave. It took the Great Plague of the 14th century, and the resulting labor shortages, to give European workers some mobility.

In California, an employer can dismiss an employee at any time for cause or no cause, with a few exceptions, like for overt racial discrimination and such. I did fire a guy "for cause" last year (he lied to us about jury duty, expecting to be paid for time off when he didn't have to serve, plus he was amassing a huge DVD p*rn connection on our DSL) and he was denied unemployment compensation because the "cause" was declared to be justified.

John

Not really. That's what makes it lopsided. Of course you could write an employment contract that stipulated a reasonable period of notice by the employee, but enforcing it might not be practical. Like some non-compete clauses it might not even be legally possible beyond a fairly short time period- I'm not an expert. Fortunately, most people are fairly reasonable. A contract would at least set out supposedly mutual expectations, and give you something to talk about when Mr. n*****ts comes looking for references.

So if the lord kicked them off the land, they'd starve? The basic idea is that (in the absence of a legal* contract to the contrary) the employer is responsible for giving 'sufficient' notice (or pay in lieu of notice.. as established by case law) that the employee suffers no financial loss. If the employee is given enough notice that s/he should be able to find an equivalent job, or finds another similar job immediately, there is no loss, and no severance is due. Supervisory and management jobs apparently take longer to find. Usually you don't want an employee hanging around causing trouble, stealing customer lists etc. after notice is given, of course. It's considered a civil matter after the stat amount (and vacation pay etc.) is taken care of, so it's expensive to pursue on either side. Most large companies won't fire for cause unless the proof is iron-clad and the offense is serious (eg. caught stealing, not just being an incompetent boob) because of the high litigation costs (a portion of it doubled if the employer has offered nothing or less than the final amount awarded and if it loses).

Sounds pretty similar, except for severance pay. A quick web search seems to show that there's no statutory notice/severance requirement in Calif. except for large-scale layoffs, where it might be 60 days. Also, in Ontario unemployment isn't paid until severance is used up at some formula pay rate (average of final 12 weeks or something like that). It isn't paid at all if the employee was fired for cause. Looks like you can double-dip in Calif.

But the big potential liability isn't the 0-8 weeks stat amount, it's the common law amount for high-level long-time 'permanent' employees, which could be as much as 18-24 months pay in extreme cases. Probably a couple weeks per year of service (up to some maximum) is more typical for large companies.

• Must at least meet the stat amount of 1 week per year to a maximum of 8 weeks.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

Hello John,

In some other countries there is. When I worked in Germany the company urged me to accept a change in my contract. They wanted six months notice after realizing they'd better not lose me. I told them I won't let them down and that I'd be hemmed in with the stock options anyway but HQ wanted to make sure. Considering that it was a US company that surprised me.

This meant the company also had to give me six months notice since that was the law. I believe it's mutual or at least had to be at that time. Over there a contract was required by law and probably still is. Before I moved across the pond some of my friend's jaws dropped when I told them that there typically are no contracts in California. That level of free enterprise was a bit much for them to grasp I guess.

They couldn't leave because America hadn't been discovered yet. Where would they have gone?

I'll never understand guys like that. How can they put such a ding into their resume by burning the bridge? If he worked for you for any length of time a future employer might ask if he had a reference at Highland Tech and if he answers evasively I don't think he'd be hired.

Regards, Joerg

Serfs were bound to their landlord. Before the plague, if a serf ran away to, say, live in another village, the local lord was expected to round him up and ship him back, as a courtesy to the other lord. That was still the theory for quite a while after, but the labor shortages made landlords wink at newcomers, and even poach them. And skilled labor became essentially independent, the beginnings of free enterprise, guilds, and eventually unions.

I won't even mention in polite company the stuff we cleared out of his desk and shipped to his home. I hope his wife didn't open the box first.

John

We're pretty much left free to do whatever on the my POE's (direct) Internet connection, but p*rn is strictly forbidden. They don't want a repeat of Playboy listing us as their #1 customer. The rules are; "they know where you'e accessing from; go ahead if you wouldn't be embarrased for your manager to know...". There was a receptionist fired for

*running* a p*rn site from her lobby desk.

It's even stiffer than that here in VT. An employer can be held for libel for telling the truth. The only answers they'll give are dates of employment, title at termination, and whether it was "voluntary" or not. They're pretty much all in the "voluntary" or "layoff" categories, unless the cause is one you've listed above.

One can tripple-dip here. State law requires 60-days notification if more than 500 people are seperated in a job action. After the 60-days one is eligible for unemployment insurance for six months. One may also have a severance package (has been as much as a year, but last time it was

6mos.) *and* collect any retirement. It's happened four or five times in the 13 years I've been here. I wouldn't be so lucky, now that I've got the last part locked in. ;-)

Yes, that's what it is (or at least was) for a layoff; two weeks per year up to 6 mos.), though there was talk about reducing that for any future job actions.

--
  Keith