OT: "Science" on the other side of the pond

Water is not pollution either, but too much of it can kill you too.

The point about CO2 in the atmosphere is that more of it does make the planet warmer, and some of the side effects of that are undesirable.

More CO2 in the atmosphere may make plants grow faster (some of the time), but submerging you coastal cities with an - eventual - 10 metre sea-level rise isn't going to their inhabitants very happy.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

We (not including John Larkin) understand enough of the details in the glob al energy balance to know that we ought to start phasing out burning fossil carbon for fuel right now.

Building enough wind farms and solar energy plants to replace our coal fire d electricity generators and the gasoline-power engineers in our cars is go ing to be a decade time-scale job, so we need to start now, rather than whe n anthropogenic global warming has advanced to the point that it's unfortun ate side-effects are obvious even to the John Larkins of the world.

By then our economic capacity to build lots of wind farms and solar energy plants isn't going to be what it is today ...

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

When we had a pool, we used it every day for at least a couple of hours. It was great when the kid was young because all the kids were at *our* house (we knew where the brat was and who he was hanging with). I used it every night before bed to cool down (we didn't have AC in that house). There was only about 10-12 weeks where it was warm enough, though.

You're exagerating but we've come to expect that.

You also worry a lot about what other people do. Weird.

We had 1/2acre. There was plenty of "back yard" outside the pool fence. No shade trees within sight (the development used to be a cow pasture).

You also state a lot of things as facts that simply aren't true.

Well, in San Francisco the standard lot is 24 feet wide, and the temperature rarely hits 70. It's 58F now, at 5:45 PM. Parkas get soggy in swimming pools.

I don't know anybody with a pool. There is the rare outdoor hot tub.

We have a bird bath.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

I think lots are ~75? ft wide, here. Usually 1/3 - 1/2 acre. But, when you consider the required set back (i.e., front yard) and attached porches/patios, back yards are not very large. And, pools rarely span the entire width or "depth" of the yard -- a fair bit of deck surrounding them, lawn furniture, etc. So, your effective pool size isn't very large.

I think 18x24 is "nominal", here -- I peered over the fence and "measured" the neighbor behind us (by counting the 16" wide blocks used to fabricate the "fence" between yards) and got an estimate of 20x16 "fence-aligned" blocks -- so, an enclosing rectangle of about 27'x21' (for some reason, no one has rectangular pools -- they're all wacky shapes -- so the actual pool "area" is a fair bit smaller). And, of course, there are often steps leading down into the pool, sometimes a spa/tub area as part of the pool, greatly reduced depth at one end, etc.

Google Map's satellite view (on max zoom) shows an outline of 23x44mm on my screen -- with the legend indicating ~27mm = 20'. This would correspond to a size of 17'x32' if the rectangle was "better aligned" with the shape of the pool (instead of forcing the measurement to be along the fenceline).

The pool at a friend's in the "country club" part of town measures

55x27 mm (google) so figure 40'x20'. [Google Maps being a handy way of gathering this sort of data without climbing over fences! :> I suspect if I pointed it at SF, I would be hard pressed to see the familiar "blue splotches" dotting the backyards like here!]

Note that our neighborhood is considerably older so pools tended to be larger. In the newer parts of town (assuming lot sizes can *support* a pool), the pools are *half* the size of those in our neighborhood. Effectively "large spas" (As I said, many people live here in their retirement to get AWAY from house/yard maintenance! Possibly sharing a pool maintained by their HOA, etc.).

Even a "big" pool (like those, here) only has a longest diagonal of ~30'. If you are trying to "swim", pushing off one wall you are already ~1/4 of the way across the pool before your feet *leave* the wall (6' tall with arms outstretched in front of you --> ~8 ft). And, as pools are invariably built with the depth gradient along the long axis (shallow at one end, deep at the other), if you are an adult, your knuckles will scrape the bottom of the pool as you approach the wall at the far (shallow) end. I manage to get a bit less than one "crawl stroke" before hitting the other edge of the (neighbor's) pool. For a *new* pool, I just push off one wall, tuck/roll/kick off the far wall, etc. Hardly anything like "swimming"!

From: _Dynamic Simulation Modeling of Outdoor Demand: Key factors trends and triggers_ (a water usage model for most of AZ) visible at

Page 4 shows how water consumption ("delivery") has almost cut in half (over the time period for *our* home).

Page 13 notes "long term decline" (possibly) attributable to:

- smaller households (retired couples instead of growing families!)

- seasonal residents (folks VISIT in Winter, LEAVE in Summer... and consider WINTER outdoor pools too COLD for their midwestern hides!)

- shrinking lot sizes (a new development near here has 1/6 acre lots)

- DECLINES IN POPULARITY OF BACKYARD POOLS, use of pool covers

Page 14 shows how much the popularity of *pools* has dropped (~20% when this place was built; 6% nowadays). People just don't *want* them (otherwise the number would be increasing and homes WITH pools would be commanding a BIG premium)

Page 17/18 shows a more attractive use for (existing) pools, nowadays (I've been trying to figure out how to install a LARGE cistern without impacting any of the plantings, here)

Page 19 confirms my assertion that pools in our part of town are *twice* the size of those in "Little California" (my nickname for the tightly packed, orange ceramic tile cubbyholes being built, now)

Page 20 is what we've considered -- small, efficient, and *useful*! (i.e., if you just want to get WET, you can always take a shower!!)

Page 23 sums up my points (less popular, smaller, more likely to be REMOVED)

Page 25 shows the move away from "families with rug rats"

Page 29 (If you are more likely to have a DOG than KIDS, why a pool instead of a "yard"?)

I suspect that if *removing* a pool was "cheap", a large percentage of those present in single family homes would disappear, overnight. A neighbor had problems selling their home because it *had* a pool (taking it out was an expensive option -- instead, he took a hit on sale price). As I said, aside from one neighbor's use with visiting grandkids, most here go unused and act more as maintenance duties (if you *drain* the pool -- the only way NOT to be required to maintain the pool chemistry, etc. -- then the pool soon needs to be resurfaced... an expensive proposition. So, folks leave pools full, keep up the cleaning and water treatment, pay the higher insurance premiums and never use them! :-/ )

We prefer dogs so were uninterested in "wasting" the yard on a pool. And, the idea of yet another maintenance task was NOT high on *my* list! We have standing invites at any of the neighbors to use their pools, hot tubs, etc. Or, can drive to the end of the street and use the lap pool that the city maintains. None are "inviting" enough to coerce us into wanting a pool of our own.

[Though, as I said, it would be nice if I could "SWIM, endlessly" for exercise -- without all the hassle of a *real* (non toy) pool]

And, the *birds* don't have to bear the cost of it! :>

--
Most worms would agree...

You're really getting to be a sour old fart. That sure doesn't sound like fun.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

ould be injecting less CO2 into the atmosphere, but I've also said that the only effective way of getting this to happen is through good old-fashioned socialist collective action.

to get the cost of renewable power below the cost of using fossil fuel for power. That will happen, but it is not true now.

solar cells when manufacturing volume goes up by yet another factor of ten. Good old socialist collective action would enlarge the market for solar ce lls enough to make that happen more or less overnight - the market enlargem ent, anyway.

You might recommend that to Venezuela, to solve their toilet-paper shortage .

Cheers, James Arthur

Socialism sure works great.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   precision measurement  

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

--
Hey, I _like_ sunlight. 

John Fields

Every day?

I used to like thunderstorms in New Orleans, and hurricanes were exciting, to a kid. We don't get either here. Most of the time it was hot (very) and humid (very).

The fog here can be cool. It moves like it's alive, not just laying around like some lazy fogs do.

And the winter storms are great, because they make snow in the mountains.

Sunlight is OK, a couple times a week maybe.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

should be injecting less CO2 into the atmosphere, but I've also said that t he only effective way of getting this to happen is through good old-fashion ed socialist collective action.

is to get the cost of renewable power below the cost of using fossil fuel f or power. That will happen, but it is not true now.

r solar cells when manufacturing volume goes up by yet another factor of te n. Good old socialist collective action would enlarge the market for solar cells enough to make that happen more or less overnight - the market enlarg ement, anyway.

ge.

Sensible socialists tweak the free market to get the collective action they want. Chavez definitely claimed to be socialist - as did the former Soviet Union - but few would have identified him as sensible.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

should be injecting less CO2 into the atmosphere, but I've also said that the only effective way of getting this to happen is through good old-fashio ned socialist collective action.

is to get the cost of renewable power below the cost of using fossil fuel for power. That will happen, but it is not true now.

or solar cells when manufacturing volume goes up by yet another factor of t en. Good old socialist collective action would enlarge the market for solar cells enough to make that happen more or less overnight - the market enlar gement, anyway.

age.

Modern socialism does - in places like Scandinavia and Germany. In places l ike the former Soviet Union and Venezula, where the rulers claimed to be so cialist and did what made sense to them, their brand of "socialism" doesn't work quite so well. You might think about US "democracy" as exported to Ir an in 1953 for a comparable example of misbranding.

The US media does like to equate "socialism" with "communism" - it avoids a ll sorts of inconvenient realities.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

What will be the cost of a MWh from such a power plant? Who is going to pay the bill?

Best regards, Piotr

:-)

Global warming, if exists, is a good thing. I just want Poland to be a bit warmer...

Best regards, Piotr

ould be injecting less CO2 into the atmosphere, but I've also said that the only effective way of getting this to happen is through good old-fashioned socialist collective action.

to get the cost of renewable power below the cost of using fossil fuel for power. That will happen, but it is not true now.

solar cells when manufacturing volume goes up by yet another factor of ten. Good old socialist collective action would enlarge the market for solar ce lls enough to make that happen more or less overnight - the market enlargem ent, anyway.

way of making a higher volume of parts more cheaply - but they do happen r eliably.

heap yet, but we can hope.

The first URL I found disagrees with you.

I seriously doubt that wind power is cheaper than natural gas. If it were no one would be talking about a carbon tax. Everyone would be rushing to build wind farms.

Dan

should be injecting less CO2 into the atmosphere, but I've also said that t he only effective way of getting this to happen is through good old-fashion ed socialist collective action.

is to get the cost of renewable power below the cost of using fossil fuel f or power. That will happen, but it is not true now.

r solar cells when manufacturing volume goes up by yet another factor of te n. Good old socialist collective action would enlarge the market for solar cells enough to make that happen more or less overnight - the market enlarg ement, anyway.

a way of making a higher volume of parts more cheaply - but they do happen reliably.

cheap yet, but we can hope.

No surprises there. Anthony Watts is part of the fossil-carbon-extraction-i ndustry funded denialist propaganda machine.

e no one would be talking about a carbon tax. Everyone would be rushing t o build wind farms.

Quite a few people are. The weakness of wind farms is that they don't produ ce power when the wind isn't blowing. Natural gas comes out of a pipe whene ver you turn the tap on, and a gas turbine and the generator it drives are rather more compact than the average wind turbine. Nobody much objects to h aving one in their back yard, mostly because they don't know that it's ther e - they may recognise it as an industrial object, but it isn't going to fa ll over or blow up, or make odd low-frequency noises.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Any wind farm or PV array needs a hot-standby conventional plant, with all its staff and capital investment and distribution. Unless it's so small that it's symbolic.

google: images: wind turbine fire

wind turbine failure

cool!

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Right; just hope that we are not headed into another mini-ice-age.

Why is it that EVERY predicted outcome of more CO2 is a horrible disaster for man and beast? You'd think that some effects, roughly half, would be good.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 
picosecond timing   laser drivers and controllers 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com